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NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:30 am

neilrex wrote:If you had two people coming from the Central Coast, and one wanted to go to Chatswood, and the other to Parramatta, then running the trains via Strathfield would be a better outcome for both of them, in aggregate, than running via the North Shore line.

That may be true but it doesn't provide a sufficient reason to remove Coast via Shore. There is some suggestion of trains to Parramatta from the Coast returning too.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:59 am

simonl wrote:
neilrex wrote:If you had two people coming from the Central Coast, and one wanted to go to Chatswood, and the other to Parramatta, then running the trains via Strathfield would be a better outcome for both of them, in aggregate, than running via the North Shore line.

That may be true but it doesn't provide a sufficient reason to remove Coast via Shore. There is some suggestion of trains to Parramatta from the Coast returning too.
Wasn't that service done by 2 car V sets and was called the river or something like that
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:27 am

neilrex wrote:If you had two people coming from the Central Coast, and one wanted to go to Chatswood, and the other to Parramatta, then running the trains via Strathfield would be a better outcome for both of them, in aggregate, than running via the North Shore line.


How would running via Strathfield be a better outcome for someone from the Coast wanting to go to Chatswood?

Gosford to Chatswood via Gordon is 60 minutes direct, without these trains it's an extra 15-30 minutes travel time each way.

Changing at Hornsby for T1 via Shore makes the trip about 70-75 minutes (up to 90 minutes on weekends due to poor connections at Hornsby), and changing at Epping for ECRL takes about 85-95 minutes depending on wait time at Epping.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby neilrex » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:56 pm

I can explain that more clearly.

The Wyong via Shore trains are relatively recent. Before that, all the central coast and Newcastle trains went via Strathfield.

So a person who wanted to go to Chatswood got off at Hornsby and used a suburban service via Gordon to Chatswood. Or indeed a suburban service from Epping to Chatswood. And the other person who wanted to go to Parramatta would get a suburban service from Strathfield to Parramatta. Or a Blue Mountains service if one happened to come along at an appropriate time.

Now suppose all of the central coast services switched to the North Shore line. That would save the Chatswood guy about 5 minutes. And it would cost the Parramatta guy about 30 minutes. Adding 30 minutes to one person's journey, to save another person 5 minutes, is, in general, "a bad deal".

The North Shore line is exclusively 2 track throughout its length. You are never going to be able to provide an express service to the central coast in cohabitation with ordinary services on the north shore line.

I know that some people have the perception that travelling via Strathfield is "the long way round" from the city to the north. But it is quicker than you think. From the mid-north-shore, travelling through the city is also "the long way round" if you are going to Parramatta or Blacktown or anywhere in the west. I travel from the mid-north-shore to the west, often, and you can usually save 5 minutes on the journey by travelling through Hornsby, instead.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby neilrex » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:00 pm

"Gosford to Chatswood via Gordon is 60 minutes direct, without these trains it's an extra 15-30 minutes travel time each way."

That's a ridiculous claim. Having to get off the central coast train at Hornsby and change to a North Shore line service, is going to cost you 5 minutes interchange time and about 3 minutes extra travel time.

That's less time than you waste stopping at Tascott and Koolewong and Cowan.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:19 pm

I make it 5 minutes extra travel time.

That's still pretty weak though. I guess the problem is that the trains catch up to the ones in front.

I've often wondered if there is enough merit in track amplification on the shore to allow more limited stopping patterns. Couldn't possibly have stacked up pre-ECRL though.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:02 pm

neilrex wrote:"Gosford to Chatswood via Gordon is 60 minutes direct, without these trains it's an extra 15-30 minutes travel time each way."

That's a ridiculous claim. Having to get off the central coast train at Hornsby and change to a North Shore line service, is going to cost you 5 minutes interchange time and about 3 minutes extra travel time.

That's less time than you waste stopping at Tascott and Koolewong and Cowan.

Not in the current timetable, the connection times are poor so you're often waiting at least 10 minutes at Hornsby for the change, and the Central Coast trains run express to Chatswood in 15 minutes whereas the T1 Hornsby starters take 22 minutes.

The time adds up quickly and is easily noticed when the Central Coast trains get sent behind the slower suburban service causing a 20 minute delay to the CCN service by the time it reaches North Sydney.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:11 pm

simonl wrote:I make it 5 minutes extra travel time.

Trip planner at transportnsw.info currently shows travel times of 1 hour 13 min or 1 hour 22 min for changing at Hornsby. Direct peak service is timetabled at exactly 1 hour.

simonl wrote:I've often wondered if there is enough merit in track amplification on the shore to allow more limited stopping patterns. Couldn't possibly have stacked up pre-ECRL though.

There was one time where where they did an overtaking move at Gordon southbound and at Chatswood northbound.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:18 pm

The 7:24am ex-Hornsby train arrives at Central at 8:07am, which is 3mins behind the 7:16am train. 5 minutes slower travel. Are you comparing equivalent stopping patterns north of Hornsby?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:06 pm

It is indeed now obvious that the draft timetables obtained by the ABC under FOI are incomplete and outdated. Sorry I dragged it up again.

However, there are some elements of it that have been adopted in the new timetable and I suspect others will also be in the upcoming 2018/2019 timetable review with the temporary closure of the ECRL and its later conversion to metro operation. Without going into the detail of operating patterns on various lines, which are still subject to review, I believe that the general thrust of the government's strategy as already foreshadowed, will be to run more suburban services into Sydney Terminal once Northern Line services diverted from the ECRL to the CBD via Strathfield. They have no choice without major track augmentation on the Inner West corridor, which appears unlikely for the foreseeable future.

So far, the early planning points to some Western Line services terminating at Central with all Northern Line suburban services continuing through the CBD to the North Shore, although that's still to be officially confirmed and could change. I'd be surprised if in fact this strategy does change because of previous proposals to introduce fast limited stops express services from Penrith to Sydney Terminal, possibly with longer trains. It would also be better operationally to reduce crossing conflicts from the Main to Suburban tracks at Homebush. It's not as big an issue for Northern Line suburban services crossing from the Northern Main (centre track pair) to the flyover at North Strathfield Junction on to Strathfield Station, particularly if a previously mooted grade separation between the Down Northern Main and the flyover is ever implemented.

A pattern running on the Northern and North Shore Lines in a loop from Hornsby to Berowra and stations in between via the CBD could potentially be a separate sector in itself, hiving it off from T1. Western Line services not terminating at Central could also continue through to the North Shore terminating at Lindfield, Gordon or Hornsby. I don't think there's any likelihood that CC via the North Shore services will be diverted via Strathfield as there may not be sufficient track capacity available on the Northern Line for a mix of that many slow and fast services.

Just going by the current timetable, that would mean 12tph between Hornsby and Epping on a single track pair (4tph suburban + 8tph Intercity) and that doesn't include freight trains. I don't know what current signalling capacity allows for. It was my understanding that the Third Track from Epping to Thornleigh, although in the Down direction (confusing isn't it because it's actually uphill), would allow for the lifting of the curfew restricting freight operations on the Sydney Trains network in the metropolitan area during peak hours. It may only apply to freight trains in the afternoon peak in the Down direction, but I'm not sure.

While there are more opportunities for fast express trains to overtake slower all stations services in the afternoon peak, North Strathfield to Rhodes and West Ryde to Thornleigh, it's more restrictive in the morning peak, with only a short section of Relief track between Thornleigh and Pennant Hills and Epping to West Ryde available for overtaking. Although the section of track from Rhodes to North Strathfield is quadruplicated, there is no crossover from the Up Relief (Suburban) back to the Up Main for passenger services proceeding to Strathfield Station. This could change when the next stage of the Northern Sydney Freight Corridor Program is completed. Although specific details are not yet available, it is proposed to complete quadruplication between Rhodes and West Ryde and extend the Third Track from Thornleigh to Hornsby. I expect it would also include the recommissioning and extension of the Up Relief track from the freight line underpass at North Strathfield to the Up Main past the flyover to Strathfield Station, for which provision has been made. With a possible grade separation of the Down Main at the flyovers, this would allow for parallel running of the Main and Relief tracks without any crossing conflicts. The only missing piece in the puzzle is to complete the quad from Hornsby to Epping (Up Relief track, although it's downhill I know), which will create more options for separating fast and slow services, including freight. In the longer term, this could possibly lead to the demise of the CC via North Shore direct services.

One thing this all highlights, is the compromises that will have to be made for the Sydney Trains operations, particularly for Western Line services, to accommodate the new Metro North West because of its takeover of the ECRL, which will require the diversion of Upper Northern Line services to the CBD via Strathfield on an already congested corridor.

Putting aside the pros and cons of the original North West Rail Link morphing into a metro, it would have been better if it had its own separate alignment from Epping to Chatswood, although obviously more expensive, continuing through to the CBD, or even the previous alignment via the Victoria Road corridor, leaving the ECRL the existing Northern Line services, which would avoid the congested Inner West corridor to the CBD. This was one of the primary justifications for the ECRL in the first place. Now that's all been brushed aside. I don't think that the government in its haste to honour its election commitment to start work on the North West Rail Link (without any community consultation on changing it to a metro operation BTW), really thought things through, in considering the ramifications of their plans on the broader Sydney Trains network. We are now, belatedly, paying the price.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:46 am

Are you sure about the lifting of the curfew? I'd be surprised if that was the case. There's still the bit from Thornleigh to Berowra, plus the interurban bit beyond. I expect it's limited to a slight alleviation allowing freighters to be at Thornleigh at curfew end.

The NWRL would have been fine if it had terminated onto new platforms at Epping or had dual use of the ECRL tunnel to Chatswood. Why such a thing wasn't done remains unclear to me.

I don't think they cared one whit about any negative implications on the rest of the network. It will be interesting to see how much political pain this causes them.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:37 pm

simonl wrote:Are you sure about the lifting of the curfew? I'd be surprised if that was the case. There's still the bit from Thornleigh to Berowra, plus the interurban bit beyond. I expect it's limited to a slight alleviation allowing freighters to be at Thornleigh at curfew end.

The reports I've seen say that the third track will lift freight paths from 29 to 44 per day and ease curfew restrictions during the peaks. Stage 2 will ease them even further, with the full quad from North Strathfield to Epping and extension of the third track from Thornleigh to the existing relief line at Hornsby. It's on Infrastructure Australia's Priority List and a business case is currently being developed. It will probably be at least another decade before the project is completed, assumimg it gets approval.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:22 am

I think the easiest solution, both operationally and politically, would be for the Richmond Line to be permanently part of the Cumberland Line leaving the rest of the Western Line able to proceed through the city.

The track layouts at both Seven Hills and Westmead support it, and the government can point to the just opened Metro which is nearby the branch, and far more frequent, as a local alternative. For both of the electoral seats it affects, the Libs would need to lose half of their votes, which I don't see happening in the car heavy McMansion land that the Richmond Line traverses through.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:13 pm

mandonov wrote:I think the easiest solution, both operationally and politically, would be for the Richmond Line to be permanently part of the Cumberland Line leaving the rest of the Western Line able to proceed through the city.

The track layouts at both Seven Hills and Westmead support it, and the government can point to the just opened Metro which is nearby the branch, and far more frequent, as a local alternative. For both of the electoral seats it affects, the Libs would need to lose half of their votes, which I don't see happening in the car heavy McMansion land that the Richmond Line traverses through.

The eventual connection of the metro to the Richmond line at Schofields will put the seal on this solution. People will get into the city faster on the metro as completed anyway, so nobody will be put out.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:32 pm

When will this happen?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:07 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:When will this happen?

Down the track, so to speak:

http://mecone.com.au/projects/north-wes ... extension/
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Daniel » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:14 pm

“Interchange” rather than physical “connection”.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:34 pm

tonyp wrote:
Fleet Lists wrote:When will this happen?

Down the track, so to speak:

http://mecone.com.au/projects/north-wes ... extension/

That does not even mention Richmond - only going as far as Marsden Park.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:10 pm

Daniel wrote:“Interchange” rather than physical “connection”.

That's what I meant. It will cross the Richmond line at right-angles with interchange at Schofields. Marsden Park is the proposed terminus for the metro - for the foreseeable future.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:43 pm

tonyp wrote:
Daniel wrote:“Interchange” rather than physical “connection”.

That's what I meant. It will cross the Richmond line at right-angles with interchange at Schofields. Marsden Park is the proposed terminus for the metro - for the foreseeable future.

The Joint Western Sydney Rail Needs Scooping Study final recommendations, if and when they are released, will no doubt give us a clearer idea of where any future extension is heading. Because of the delay in the recommendations' release, promised months ago, there is obviously some disagreement between the Federal and State governments. Does the metro terminate at Schofields, Marsden Park, St Marys, Badgerys Creek Airport or elsewhere? IMO, for what it's worth, St Marys and the airport would be the logical interchange points with the Sydney Trains network.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby GazzaOak » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:00 am

tonyp wrote:The eventual connection of the metro to the Richmond line at Schofields will put the seal on this solution. People will get into the city faster on the metro as completed anyway, so nobody will be put out.


They should have done that in the first place, its only just a lazy few km extension from cugerdong rd.... then its will be a ton easier to turn the richmond line into the cumberland line.... without any backclash....

Even without the extension, they can still divert all richmond line branch trains to cumberland lines trains....
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:38 pm

They didn't do that off the bat because no design work had been done on it. The only reason they were able to get the NWRL up and running so soon after the election is because a lot of the leg work in planning and corridor protection had been completed by the prior government.

Conversely, the City & Southwest project has taken about 3 years to reach the same point that the NWRL was a year after the 2011 election.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:31 pm

When I asked them directly why they didn't add in an extension to Schofields in the first stage, they advised that the project was going forward under a 2005 (iirc) planning approval and the process for modifying that approval would have delayed the project significantly.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:41 pm

Expanding on my previous post, the new airport at Badgerys Creek would obviously be the major destination from both the Metro Northwest and the SWRL. It would therefore be logical for the airport to be the major interchange point between the two systems, preferably with cross platform interchange for journeys continuing beyond in either direction. This could be a sticking point with the Feds, who appear to favour the SWRL as part of the existing network, continuing via the airport through to at least St Marys. It would obviously be far more expensive to extend the metro from Cudgegong Rd all the way to the airport. A direct connection to Parramatta is another issue to be resolved.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:06 pm

andy_centralcoast wrote:There was one time where where they did an overtaking move at Gordon southbound and at Chatswood northbound.

Found it in an old timetable scan.

Anyone who got on the 10:16 from Hornsby heading to Chatswood or the city would have been better to wait 5 minutes for the CCN service at 10:21 - it didn't have the 'd' (set down only) stops at Chatswood and St Leonards like the earlier peak CCN via Shore services.

Image

Also didn't realise the off-peak service frequency via Gordon was better 20 years ago than today!
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