• Advertisement

NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:52 am

tonyp wrote:The party that doesn't occupy state seats in the Illawarra where attention to public transport is measured in negative figures?


Get back on Route 55 and remember to tap on!

And be grateful for what you get!

Minister for Jerseys.
Tonymercury
 
Posts: 2388
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:14 pm
Location: Botany NSW
Has thanked: 201 times
Been thanked: 298 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby ed24 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:37 pm

simonl wrote:There has been work done at Hornsby to allow 20tph on the NSL, which infers that they won't terminate at Gordon or Lindfield any more but I wouldn't call that certain.

I was under the impression that there would be more Lindfield terminators, not less, in the future but I may be wrong. Trains starting at Lindfield obviously also have more chance of being empty arriving into Chatswood (could they even run empty from Lindfield and skip Roseville?) which will help with the Metro arrivals.
ed24
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:04 am
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby GazzaOak » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:19 pm

ed24 wrote:I was under the impression that there would be more Lindfield terminators, not less, in the future but I may be wrong. Trains starting at Lindfield obviously also have more chance of being empty arriving into Chatswood (could they even run empty from Lindfield and skip Roseville?) which will help with the Metro arrivals.


I think they will end up having that regardless during the temporary stage until the metro to cbd is built. (or even increase the CCN trains operating to north shore line as well)

Frosty wrote:I could see maybe sending more CCN trains via the North Shore post Sydney Metro going south. That would free up extra slots into Sydney Terminal for BMT trains. Though metro doesn't solve some issues particular on the T4/South Coast Line its currently full past Wolli Creek where 4 tracks essentially merge into 2 due to the ESR.

I've got a question is the Airport Line tunnels now capable of running 20tph or is still limited 12tph or something like that ?
If I'm not mistaken when Central Coast trains terminate at North Sydney when there is trackwork at Sydney Terminal so that would be the reason why.


Yeah, I really think that a good idea to have more CCN trains using the North Shore (can even during construction of the metro, but i think its will be most used with metro operating)...

I think the metro can indirectly assist with the ESR capacity (eg have some T4/south coast trains terminating at sydney terminal, since the bankstown line will be converted to metro, some T4/south coast can share with T8 express line, but that idea can only work if many CCN services get diverted to the north shore line, but have to skip woilli creek). But i think that may not happen if all western express services also terminate there unless if they try to increase train limits)

Every time i see CCN trains terminating at north sydney on weekends, i never heard of trackwork operating on the sydney terminal, and BMT still terminates there regardless... if there was trackwork at sydney terminal, they would have also send the BMT trains also to north sydney... (and south coast operates as per usual).

Airport line.... i think its can operate 20tph, but its the city circle that the issue there (i personally think the government can do a standalone metro line just from central to revsby)
White ribbon day is most sexist thing ever
User avatar
GazzaOak
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:53 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 49 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby neilrex » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:16 pm

One of the downsides of having Lindfield terminators, is that increases crowding at Town Hall and Wynyard in the PM, because there are so many people who can't catch the first available train.

That is, unless you convince people to get on the first train that comes, and change to a following one at Chatswood or Lindfield.

Actually, that is a downside of terminating anywhere, or having skipping schemes. More crowding at the boarding platform as people have to wait for the 2nd or 3rd or 4th train to come along.

They solve this problem in China, by arbitrarily terminating trains early without telling the customers. I've been told the trams in Melbourne do the same thing.
neilrex
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby jpp42 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:26 pm

neilrex wrote:They solve this problem in China, by arbitrarily terminating trains early without telling the customers.


Definitely had this happen to me on the Shanghai Metro. The desto clearly had the end of line station on it, but it terminated a good 10-15 stations before then. The next train along the line terminated there too, I had to wait for the third train before I got one that actually continued. It worked well to keep people from waiting at the busy origin platform, and instead wait at the inner suburban terminating location, and it was clearly business as usual for the regular commuters.
User avatar
jpp42
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 242 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby boronia » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:47 pm

neilrex wrote:One of the downsides of having Lindfield terminators, is that increases crowding at Town Hall and Wynyard in the PM, because there are so many people who can't catch the first available train.

That is, unless you convince people to get on the first train that comes, and change to a following one at Chatswood or Lindfield.

Actually, that is a downside of terminating anywhere, or having skipping schemes. More crowding at the boarding platform as people have to wait for the 2nd or 3rd or 4th train to come along.
.

You get the same problem where a platform serves more than one destination. Wynyard 3 - Central 18 have trains to Epping, Penrith and Richmond.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 17059
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 1531 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby ed24 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:41 pm

neilrex wrote:One of the downsides of having Lindfield terminators, is that increases crowding at Town Hall and Wynyard in the PM, because there are so many people who can't catch the first available train.


I would imagine they aren't really required in the PM but more the AM. But as you say this can happen to a lesser extent anyway with the split stopping patterns on the current timetable.
ed24
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:04 am
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:21 pm

Well the Hornsby Junction Upgrade enables 16TPH to serve Hornsby on the North Shore Line, leaving 4TPH to be served by either Gordon or Lindfield. All 4 could probably be adequately serviced by Gordon alone, which I think would be preferable.
mandonov
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 88 times
Been thanked: 256 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:42 pm

mandonov wrote:Well the Hornsby Junction Upgrade enables 16TPH to serve Hornsby on the North Shore Line, leaving 4TPH to be served by either Gordon or Lindfield. All 4 could probably be adequately serviced by Gordon alone, which I think would be preferable.

Or Berowra starters or Coast via Shore.

We're really just guessing about what will actually happen. All we know is what is possible.
simonl
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 839 times
Been thanked: 360 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:50 pm

simonl wrote:Or Berowra starters or Coast via Shore.

We're really just guessing about what will actually happen. All we know is what is possible.

Which is why I worded it as 'serving' Hornsby rather than starting there. The 16TPH can be any sort of combination.
mandonov
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 88 times
Been thanked: 256 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:01 pm

What would stop 20tph from running through there (other than coast via Strathfield trains), if they aren't being turned around?
simonl
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 839 times
Been thanked: 360 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:03 pm

The upgrade only allows for 16 according to the documentation.
mandonov
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 88 times
Been thanked: 256 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby andy_centralcoast » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:23 pm

GazzaOak wrote:Every time i see CCN trains terminating at north sydney on weekends, i never heard of trackwork operating on the sydney terminal, and BMT still terminates there regardless... if there was trackwork at sydney terminal, they would have also send the BMT trains also to north sydney... (and south coast operates as per usual).

There's been a lot of trackwork weekends at Sydney Terminal recently for the Sydney Yard Access Bridge construction. CCN trains have been going through to terminate at North Sydney. Interestingly sometimes extending as all stops passenger, sometimes express to North Sydney, and sometimes terminate on platform 16 and continue as empty.

Mountains trains had previously gone thorugh to North Sydney or City Circle as well - there's been videos uploaded on YouTube of people boarding V-sets at Circular Quay. However more recently they have been terminating at Blacktown instead.
andy_centralcoast
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: NSW
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:29 pm

grog wrote:They could both be true given the way that politicians carefully choose their words.

"Northern Line services will go via Strathfield to the CBD" - is Central in the CBD? I'd say yes.

"Northern Line services will continue through the CBD" - 'continue' could mean existing Northern line services - current Epping starters.

The end result could be Upper Northern Line services to Sydney Terminal, Lower Northern Line services through Town Hall and Wynyard, and no removed paths for the Western Line.

We can only wait and see. Unless there is a link officially confirming.

It's been confirmed numerous times that Northern Line services will run direct to the city via Strathfield post ECRL conversion in the Epping to Chatswood Railway - Conversion to Rapid Transit Submissions Report (sorry, can't provide the link). I'm still trying to track down the confirmation I've seen that all Northern Line services from Strathfield will run through to the North Shore and will keep you posted.
Transtopic
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:56 am

Very keen to see the confirmation that services will continue to the North Shore if you find it - I think I recall hearing something similar but can’t remember well enough to know if it was official or not.

Regarding the submissions report, this once again comes back to what your definition of ‘city’ is - it sounds deliberately vague to me. The answer is also in response to submissions wrongly claiming they will need to change at Epping and Chatswood to get to the city post-Metro.
grog
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:09 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 90 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby boronia » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:30 am

andy_centralcoast wrote:Mountains trains had previously gone thorugh to North Sydney or City Circle as well - there's been videos uploaded on YouTube of people boarding V-sets at Circular Quay. However more recently they have been terminating at Blacktown instead.


8V services on BMT have been terminating at Blacktown, with connecting suburban trains to similar times. 4v services were continuing to Central (s), then CC or NS. Presumably the CC runs lay up at Eveleigh or Mac'town before operating the next down service?
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 17059
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 1531 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:29 pm

Transtopic wrote:It's been confirmed numerous times that Northern Line services will run direct to the city via Strathfield post ECRL conversion in the Epping to Chatswood Railway - Conversion to Rapid Transit Submissions Report (sorry, can't provide the link). I'm still trying to track down the confirmation I've seen that all Northern Line services from Strathfield will run through to the North Shore and will keep you posted.

You don't mean this passage from that report:
sec 4.8.2 wrote:As described in section 5.2.1 of the Epping to Chatswood railway conversion REF, from mid-2018, the train
timetable would be changed to provide for Northern Line services from Hornsby to the city via Strathfield,
instead of the present route from via Macquarie Park and the North Shore


It just says "city". Could easily be Central.

EDIT: Sec 5.2.1 of the other report doesn't clarify either. I'll need hard evidence to believe that this has ever been officially announced.
simonl
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 839 times
Been thanked: 360 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:47 pm

simonl wrote:
Transtopic wrote:It's been confirmed numerous times that Northern Line services will run direct to the city via Strathfield post ECRL conversion in the Epping to Chatswood Railway - Conversion to Rapid Transit Submissions Report (sorry, can't provide the link). I'm still trying to track down the confirmation I've seen that all Northern Line services from Strathfield will run through to the North Shore and will keep you posted.

You don't mean this passage from that report:
sec 4.8.2 wrote:As described in section 5.2.1 of the Epping to Chatswood railway conversion REF, from mid-2018, the train
timetable would be changed to provide for Northern Line services from Hornsby to the city via Strathfield,
instead of the present route from via Macquarie Park and the North Shore


It just says "city". Could easily be Central.

EDIT: Sec 5.2.1 of the other report doesn't clarify either. I'll need hard evidence to believe that this has ever been officially announced.

I have managed to dig up some previous information to give some credence to the suggestion that after the shutdown of the ECRL for conversion to metro, Westen Express services from Penrith will run on the Main tracks to Sydney Terminal, freeing up paths on the Suburban tracks from Strathfield to the city through to the North Shore for the diverted Upper Northern Line services.

Although I'll concede this is not "official", it does give a strong indication of the likely scenerio. In his post of May 03, 2016 on this thread (Page 74), mandonov included a link to an Issue Paper prepared by Transport for NSW entitled "Sydney's Rail Future 2021 Demand Assessment on the 2019 Reference Case". <www.smh.com.au/cqstatic/13fgec/2019patronage.pdf>. On Page 4 of that report, it summarised that in the one hour AM peak after the ECRL shutdown, there would be 5tph limited stops express from Penrith to Sydney Terminal; 5tph from St Marys; 5tph from the Richmond Line and 5tph Intercity from the Blue Mountains, a total of 20tph through Platform 1 at Parramatta. At Homebush, the 10 St Marys and Richmond Line services would cross from the Main to the Suburban tracks continuing through to the North Shore and the remaining 10 Penrith express and Blue Mountains Intercity services would continue on the Main to Sydney Terminal.

On the Northern Line, there would be 5tph from Hornsby; 5tph from Epping and 5tph CCN Intercity services, a total of 15tph. The 5 Intercity services would run via the Main to Sydney Terminal and the 10 Hornsby and Epping starters would cross via the flyover at Strathfield to the Suburban tracks joining the 10 Western Line services through to the North Shore. There would be a total of 15tph Western and Northern services into Sydney Terminal on the Main. This to me seems to be a sensible outcome.

However, the ABC obtained documents after a protracted FOI request from Transport for NSW detailing draft timetables for the Sydney Trains network after the opening of the Metro North West. They highlighted how some Western Line services would have to be cut to accommodate the additional Northern Line services diverted from the ECRL. This is obviously a sensitive issue for the government and no doubt why they resisted making the documents available to the public. In their defence, they were draft internal documents and subject to review, but they still give an insight into the direction they proposed to take. The documents included network maps for the proposed operational patterns for the 2018 timetable during the temporary shutdown of the ECRL and the 2019 timetable after the metro opens. Details here <www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-19/western-sydney-train-services-to-be-cut/8442164>.

Some interesting observations are that longer Intercity trains were proposed for both the Blue Mountains and CCN services, most likely 10 cars, which would fit in with the order for the New Intercity Fleet for 4 and 6 car sets. It would appear that the Penrith express services to Sydney Terminal may also be serviced by the NIF and not suburban stock. The proposed timetables and route maps also show some changed operating patterns on the Northern Line. In the interim 2018 timetable, Intercity services no longer stop at Eastwood, but at Rhodes instead. However, in the 2019 timetable Intercity services run express from Epping to Strathfield. While the 2019 timetable shows Hornsby starters running all stations to Eastwood, then West Ryde, Meadowbank, Rhodes, Strathfield, Redfern, Central and through to the North Shore, the diagram shows them running all stations to Epping, then Rhodes, Strathfield, Redfern, Central to the Shore. No Northern Line trains stop at Burwood.

Another anomaly, unless I'm reading the timetable incorrectly, is that some services starting from Berowra run all stations to Hornsby, then express to Epping, then all stations to Strathfield, Redfern, Central and North Shore. That doesn't make much sense. Admittedly, this could all change by the time the 2018 timtable is released later this year, but whatever the outcome, it is likely to cause a lot of controversy.
Last edited by Transtopic on Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Transtopic
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:41 am

That first link was the one I was thinking of when I referred to the leak.

I can't recall the article in your second link. I'm surprised there hasn't been more agitation about all that. Perhaps people don't believe it's real, but it is. If I was running the government, I'd want to make damn sure these changes were not implemented before the election but it seems they will be.

Removing Coast via Shore is just stupid. Causes a flow from the less congested shore to the more congested via Strathfield route. Sounds like the South line all stopping between Strathfield and Redfern is a go too, with the suggested slow down there. How s***.
simonl
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 839 times
Been thanked: 360 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:25 am

I was aware of both of those documents, but do remember that both are documents dated 2014 (even though the second was released much later), so can only be seen to reflect an option at a single point in time.

I believe there were comments here somewhere from who may have been in the know talking about a draft timetable they had seen that involved frequent Hornsby to Penrith services and full time Cumberland line services to Richmond.

I guess my point is that we just don't know yet and it is likely that things have change from 2014 - as these things often do.
grog
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:09 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 90 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:18 pm

The changes are likely to be relatively subtle though. They might keep Coast via Shore going. If it were up to me, I'd run the upper northern line into Sydney Terminal rather than trimming the Western Line although I doubt that will happen.

Looks like that second leak was discussed here.
simonl
 
Posts: 7918
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Has thanked: 839 times
Been thanked: 360 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:53 pm

simonl wrote:The changes are likely to be relatively subtle though. They might keep Coast via Shore going. If it were up to me, I'd run the upper northern line into Sydney Terminal rather than trimming the Western Line although I doubt that will happen.

Looks like that second leak was discussed here.

Ahhh! Thanks Simon, It's all come back. I knew in the back of my mind that there was a more detailed discussion on this leaked timetable, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I couldn't even remember my own posts. Since reacquainting myself with the thread (2018 draft timetable changes obtained by ABC), I think neilrex gave a good appraisal of the ABC's report. I'll make any further comment on that thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84218
Transtopic
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby neilrex » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:09 pm

I remember looking at that plan where everything was a multiple of 5. I don't remember if it was "the" actual plan, though.

The Strathfield-Hornsby line has advantages over the North Shore line for managing a mix of suburban and exurban services, including an extra platform at Hornsby, Strathfield and Epping and Thornleigh and sections of three and four track, of which they could make advantageous use if they bothered to do so, and kept time better.

If you had two people coming from the Central Coast, and one wanted to go to Chatswood, and the other to Parramatta, then running the trains via Strathfield would be a better outcome for both of them, in aggregate, than running via the North Shore line.
neilrex
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 44 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:14 pm

Transtopic wrote:
simonl wrote:The changes are likely to be relatively subtle though. They might keep Coast via Shore going. If it were up to me, I'd run the upper northern line into Sydney Terminal rather than trimming the Western Line although I doubt that will happen.

Looks like that second leak was discussed here.

Ahhh! Thanks Simon, It's all come back. I knew in the back of my mind that there was a more detailed discussion on this leaked timetable, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I couldn't even remember my own posts. Since reacquainting myself with the thread (2018 draft timetable changes obtained by ABC), I think neilrex gave a good appraisal of the ABC's report. I'll make any further comment on that thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84218

The other thread is now locked for some reason and no further comment can be made. What now Fleet Lists?
Transtopic
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:13 am

I think we can continue discussion here rather than discuss in two places.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 19682
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 949 times
Been thanked: 1019 times

PreviousNext


  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Sydney / NSW

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests