Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

[gascoyne]

TonyMercury, I had a look at the website which you specified and it doesn't answer my question. Did I miss something?

[mandonov]

TonyMercury, I had a look at the website which you specified and it doesn't answer my question. Did I miss something?

Construction in tunnels

Work includes:

Installation of the track slab
Installation of the railway tracks
Ventilation systems
Installing cable and equipment including signalling, communications and electricity
Installing overhead wiring
Installing other equipment such as lighting, drainage and safety systems including emergency walkways and fire hydrant systems.

[Tonymercury]

For those who still believe that a single deck metro is necessary-

http://www.metro-report.com/news/news-b ... ine-a.html

[grog]

That is Grade-of-Automation (GoA) 2 - i.e. still with a driver who pushes a button to go. Sydney Metro is GoA4 (unattended). Sydney Metro was built they way it is because its fare revenue is likely to cover operating costs within 10 years of opening. Sydney Trains is targeted to have GoA2 ATO operational on at least parts of the network within 10 years - drivers will still be present.

[GazzaOak]

That is Grade-of-Automation (GoA) 2 - i.e. still with a driver who pushes a button to go. Sydney Metro is GoA4 (unattended). Sydney Metro was built they way it is because its fare revenue is likely to cover operating costs within 10 years of opening. Sydney Trains is targeted to have GoA2 ATO operational on at least parts of the network within 10 years - drivers will still be present.

I think due to the complexity of some of the lines on the Sydney Train network, i think they will still need drivers for a long time to come.

I could see some lines being converted into full metro (particularly if they are newer built lines)

[simonl]

I've never heard of driverless trains running through level crossings. Perhaps in the Pilbara.

Given that sector 1 & 3 both have a few of these, it would probably need some special moves.

[Transtopic]

I could see some lines being converted into full metro (particularly if they are newer built lines)

I'll reserve my judgement on converting any further lines to metro until we see how successful the Bankstown Line infrastructure conversion turns out to be. The ECRL conversion is fairly straightforward. Any new inner city lines, eg the West Metro, should definitely be built as metros, but I'm not so sure about long distance outer suburban lines, such as a rail link to Badgerys Creek Airport. The results of the Joint Federal/State Western Sydney Rail Needs Study are due out soon, so that should provide an insight into the future direction for the rail network.

As a matter of interest, does anyone have any information on successful conversions of legacy rail systems, or parts thereof, to driverless automated metro operation?

[grog]

I really don't think we will see any kind of mass conversion to driverless metro on the existing network. Revesby local, Hurstville local would be the extent of it at most.

GoA 2 ATO is a different matter. It's more about increasing capacity and performance than replacing humans. The driver is still there to intervene when required.

[Frosty]

Instead of maybe Hurstville conversion to metro they would install ATO between Wolli Creek and Bondi Jn. The T4 Line is independent from the others.

A conversion to metro for the Revsesby local guessing via Airport would be interesting particularly with the curved trench platform for Wolli Creek and the underground curved platforms at Green Square. That would require a lengthy shutdown. There's a desire amongst the community in the Inner West with Sydney Metro to add some more stations in between Waterloo and Sydenham like one at Green Square, Alexandria, St Peters.

[moa999]

As mentioned previously whilst not ideal, other countries have PSDs on curves platforms.

Agree that section of T4 would be ideal for conversion.
Other (far more disruptive option) would be to link Central-Bondi section to a new express service to Parramatta/Badgerys, or even to the Airport line.

I also wonder in the future with improvements to communications and video cams and lidar sensors, that you could have a centralised control that can authorise movements at curved non-PSD stations

[GazzaOak]

I really don't think we will see any kind of mass conversion to driverless metro on the existing network. Revesby local, Hurstville local would be the extent of it at most.

Or Redfern to Bondi Junction.... the ESRL was originally going to be a stand alone line till the government at the time wanted to save money by merging all illawarra/shire services onto that line....

I think its going to throw things out of whack if they try and convert ESRL into driverless metro.... so i wouldn't say an good idea till we can figure out where the illawarra/shire services go if that going to be case

[Glen]

.... the ESRL was originally going to be a stand alone line till the government at the time wanted to save money by merging all illawarra/shire services onto that line....

The ESR wasn't integrated to save money, it was integrated to increase capacity through the City.

[Glen]

For those who still believe that a single deck metro is necessary-

http://www.metro-report.com/news/news-b ... ine-a.html

The Paris RER Line A is an impressive operation. They are long 10 car DD trains with 3 doors per side. The distances between stations and the types of areas it serves look a lot more like the North West of Sydney than some politicians here would have you believe, or even understand themselves.

Just on your link though, I don't see any relationship between the extent to which a train is driverless, and whether it is single or double deck.

The NWRL could easily have been built as a DD driverless system between Rouse Hill and Chatswood, then driven manually along the North Shore line, until the new City line is built.

We'll find out just how interesting the decision not to do that was oh, at about 7.30am one Monday in 21 months time.

[boronia]

How about converting Bondi - Central to a metro, then run a new line out to Little Bay via UNSW and Maroubra Junct. This could utilize Plats 26 and 27.

Illawarra trains can terminate in 24/25, using similar turnback arrangements as now at Bondi Junction.

[Fleet Lists]

Terminating the Illawarra line at Central would be a nightmare as all those going into the City would need to change to other trains or buses which is not necessary now.

As Glen pointed out above combining it with the line to Bondi Junction prevented this and giving extra capacity through the City.

[simonl]

Just on your link though, I don't see any relationship between the extent to which a train is driverless, and whether it is single or double deck.

That's his point.

[Glen]

Just on your link though, I don't see any relationship between the extent to which a train is driverless, and whether it is single or double deck.

That's his point.

Yes I realise, but I don't think it was a widely pushed aspect that it had to be single-deck to be driverless, it was more the Govt saying it had to be single-deck to be faster, shiny, new, less 1972, that sort of thing, as I saw it.

[Glen]

How about converting Bondi - Central to a metro, then run a new line out to Little Bay via UNSW and Maroubra Junct. This could utilize Plats 26 and 27.

Illawarra trains can terminate in 24/25, using similar turnback arrangements as now at Bondi Junction.

The point of which, is...................?

[tonyp]

The Paris RER Line A is an impressive operation. They are long 10 car DD trains with 3 doors per side. The distances between stations and the types of areas it serves look a lot more like the North West of Sydney than some politicians here would have you believe, or even understand themselves.

Sydney Trains isn't SNCF. I think you have to work with the lowest common denominator, like a teacher who has bright kids in the class and ones who just plod along. You set the task to what each group can achieve. Institutionally, the NSW railways in general are no longer capable of running a top notch train service and couldn't run a fast double deck service to French standards. So the best way out of it is automation with high-performance trains - which happen to be single deck. I'm a pragmatist.

I've always thought that the best double deck suburban service in Sydney was the expresses to Campbelltown via East Hills line. This long distance express stuff, rather than stopping services, is what they're best at in Sydney and what double deckers are best suited for. Relatively-speaking that is, until you compare with somewhere like Perth. The fastest Campbelltown expresses take about 50 minutes with 10 intermediate stops over 54 km. I used it for a while years ago and I thought it was great considering the distance. Go to the Mandurah line in Perth, which is similar in profile to the Campbelltown route (generally nice and straight) and you find it also takes about 50 minutes with 10 intermediate stops from Perth. Wow, you think, the Campbelltown service is equal to the best in Perth!

But the Mandurah line is 70 km long, 16 km longer. Greyhounds the double deckers are not. The NW metro will perform very similarly to the Perth lines. That's why my money's on it and not a double decker service. If you can get a high average speed = shorter journey time, seating is not so important. Sydney needs double deckers only because the journey times are so damn achingly slow.

It would be interesting to know the journey time, distance and number of intermediate stops for that Paris line for comparison. Is there a double decker anywhere that can perform as well as a single decker on stop-start work? And then even if there is, could NSW run it to optimum performance like an overseas operation or will there be all these constraints on it? NSW transport is all about constraints.

[Glen]

Sydney's double-deckers are not slow (between stations) per se, they are deliberately driven slow to deliberately slow timetables. Simple as that.

[tonyp]

Sydney's double-deckers are not slow (between stations) per se, they are deliberately driven slow to deliberately slow timetables. Simple as that.

But before those slow timetables was it ever much better, using the Mandurah line times as a standard? Unfortunately my timetable collection doesn't include the period I used this Campbelltown train after 1987 or early 1990s when the line went through. I don't recall that it was timetabled much faster if at all than it is now. I know that the trains are capable of up to about 130 km/h like the Perth trains but how do they accelerate and decelerate in and out of stations and what are their dwell times like? Put it another way, if you could place them on the Mandurah line what journey time would they achieve?

[simonl]

Sydney's double-deckers are not slow (between stations) per se, they are deliberately driven slow to deliberately slow timetables. Simple as that.

Well... Compared to the NG rollingstock they are underpowered, track infrastructure is filled with low speed (25km/h) points and onerous speed restrictions *and* they are driven slowly to deliberately slow timetables.

[tonyp]

Just like when the missus keeps at you to clear all the "junk" out of the shed and you do and a few years later you find you needed that bit of 4x2 or jar of odd size screws to do a job for her (which is the reason you kept them for years), likewise I get asked "why do you have to keep all those old timetables?" but in this case I hung onto them! So I've dug out tts for western line and Campbelltown via East Hills from about 2000 and find that the Campbelltown run is little different from today's fastest 50 minutes (there were a couple more stops) and the western line expresses were about the same one hour over the same 55 km to Penrith. Even The Chips flying through from the Blue Mountains with only 4 stops after Penrith in 1997 took the same time as the Campbelltown expresses and thus the same 50 minutes as the Mandurah trains, but over 16 km less distance. The suburban Penrith express trains were and are 10 minutes slower over the same distance than the Campbelltown express trains

Unless I see some good figures on those Paris trains, I'm just continuing to find that double deckers can't cut it compared to single deckers performance-wise and even if they are proven to come close in Europe, they still won't be able to repeat the class-act in Sydney. I once very much wanted to believe in the double deckers in Sydney, but they've always failed to live up to performance expectations, slow timetable or not. I've ceased to believe that they can. Their best role is the same as for double-decker buses, long distance, express services where there is a greater need for seating capacity. As soon as there's a need for regular stops they lose it on both acceleration/deceleration and passenger exchange. This is why single-deck metro-type stock is best for services such as Mandurah and NW Sydney.

[simonl]

Checking the timetable, it seems some of the slowness has been squeezed out. That is surprising. When did that happen?

[Glen]

Well I always like to go back to my 1938 timetable and that's how you see where we’ve really lost it.

Some of the best (worst) examples are on all stations off-peak and weekend running on steep uphill routes.

For example, Central to Hornsby Shore all stations:

1938 44 mins
1949 45
1958 47
1960 46
1973 46
1980 45
1984 41
1992 44
2000 45
2004 47
2005 51
2017 51

Remember, in 1938 we are talking about two-motor Leeds Forge and Bradfield ex-steam cars whining up and over the Harbour Bridge!

Wynyard to Hornsby Main, express Redfern – Burwood:

1938 55 mins
1949 55
1958 57
1960 57
1973 57
1980 54
1984 51
1992 53
2000 54
2004 57
2005 58
2017 59 (equiv)

Nobody is ever going to convince me that there is ANY excuse for that appalling result, after the millions of dollars that have been spent on “upgrading”. It’s simply a disgrace.

Even Central - Bankstown all stations … was 31 mins in 1938, now it is 36 mins. How much time was that 'metro' going to save??

Wynyard - Strathfield all stations … was 27 mins in 1938, now it is 32 mins.

Wynyard - Liverpool via Granville, express Redfern – Burwood … was 55 mins in 1938, now it is 62 mins.

Need I go on?