Improving school student behaviour

[Sue Gill]

Hi all,
I am a co-editor of a new Internet publication at http://penrith.communityvaluesaustralia.org We’ve been covering the recent spate of attacks on buses in Western Sydney and have spoken to quite a few drivers about the issue.

While the rock attacks are clearly police issues, the abuse and misbehaviour by school children is not. This, we believe, is a family/community issue.

One of our key objectives is to try alert and mobilise community effort to resolve these types of problems.

We’ve had a number of ideas how to improve student behaviour. One idea is to ask bus drivers to complete incident report as a result of any act contrary to the acceptable Code of Conduct.

We would then publish an article each week focusing on the most blatant abuses. At the same time, we hope to get the cooperation of the schools involved so they pursue the matter further with parents.

In other words, we would like to create a feedback mechanism alerting parents to unsafe and inappropriate behaviour.

The other aspect of Incident Report is that it will be fed into an ongoing survey which will track improvements, or otherwise, on an ongoing basis.

Parents will also have access to this data on a school-by-school basis.

I just came across this forum and though I’d pose the idea and get some initial feedback.

We’ve designed forms and if you are interested you can have a look at these”
<a href="http://www.communityvaluesaustralia.org ... t-flyer</a>, <a href="http://www.communityvaluesaustralia.org ... ">Incident Report.</a>

(These are pdf and you will need acrobat reader to view them.)

Feedback would be much appreciated.

Sue

[fm]

Problem is the guilty party get off lighty after incident so they end up doing the same thing over and over again. The law should be toughened up.

[hornetfig]

While the rock attacks are clearly police issues, the abuse and misbehaviour by school children is not. This, we believe, is a family/community issue.

No. It is patently both. Conduct amounting to an offence by an adult should not be ignored by the police simply because the offenders aren't 18. All reasonable children aged over 10 years are deemed capable determining right from wrong and are thus capable of being criminally liable for their disorderly conduct.

And they should be.

And they should be subject to community service orders as a result.

Yes the community is responsible for curbing such behaviour, but when such behaviour does occur then I'm sorry but can, should and must apply.

[Wrong Way - Go Back]

I am a co-editor of a new Internet publication at http://penrith.communityvaluesaustralia.org

Sue,
I am wondering who in your organisation decides what represents Australian "community values". You? George? There does not seem to be a democratic basis to the organisation, therefore is it not likely that you may just reflect a personal (and possbly biased) position?

I am also interested in understanding the source of funding for your various campaigns, such as billboard advertising, printing of flyers etc.

The goals on your website appear admirable, but I have to say that the organisation appears to be at least a little shadowy at present.

I am certainly concerned by your stated willingness to "name and shame", and the intention to publish unscientific data in a league table according to "marks for student behaviour" awarded by untrained observers. (Driver: "I'm giving you a 10 because you REALLY annoyed me.")

[Sue Gill]

I am wondering who in your organisation decides what represents Australian "community values". You? George? There does not seem to be a democratic basis to the organisation, therefore is it not likely that you may just reflect a personal (and possbly biased) position?

Firstly, organisation is probably hopeful at the moment, we are simply a very small group of local residents who are trying to make a difference. At the moment there is a core of about 4 people with another 30 helpers.

There is only one core value that unites all of us and that is the idea of "doing right by others". No one in our group invented this, it is the fair go, mateship, fireman's bravery, volunteerism ... etc.

As a society we haven't stopped teaching this value, but we feel it needs to be reinforced. But more importantly, we believe this value, once awakened more fully, can be used to help with problems such as the deplorable behaviour of some students on school buses.

I am also interested in understanding the source of funding for your various campaigns, such as billboard advertising, printing of flyers etc.

At this stage we're all chipping in and using our various skills to cut down the cost.

I am certainly concerned by your stated willingness to "name and shame",

Within the constraints of law and common sense. The major papers and current affairs do this all the time. Not saying we will sensationalise in the same way.

and the intention to publish unscientific data in a league table according to "marks for student behaviour" awarded by untrained observers. (Driver: "I'm giving you a 10 because you REALLY annoyed me.")

The Incident Report will ask specific questions which will provide detail about any incident.
Any survey involving questioning people involves a degree of error, this is unavoidable. However, it can be minimised by using established survey techniques.
The value of the survey is that it can present data in a variety of ways and then people can make a more informed judgement.

[Sue Gill]

No. It is patently both. Conduct amounting to an offence by an adult should not be ignored by the police simply because the offenders aren't 18. All reasonable children aged over 10 years are deemed capable determining right from wrong and are thus capable of being criminally liable for their disorderly conduct.

Totally agree, but the reality as we've been told by bus drivers is that police are reluctant to act in cases involving children under 18.

The reluctance is understandable from one standpoint at least. Children and teenagers do make mistakes and to be saddled with a criminal record at a tender age could be devastating.

That is why we believe the efforts should be channelled to making the community more aware of the problem and putting pressure on parents to take more responsibility for their children.

[Rail Bus]

I deal with school "students" almost on a daily basis as a bus driver. Today I had a particulary troublesome school (that I cant name here) and a full load of kids on board. The kids took advantage of a crowded bus to muck up by continuing to blow whistles after I'd told them not to. Even when I threatened to stop the bus, they continued. Only when the teacher in charge threatened them with an immidiate detention did their behaviour improve. Is this what it takes to get the brats of today to behave whilst out in public?

As a bus driver in this era, I am forced, by law, to take a "softly softly" approach instead of the action that was taken on my generation, 20 years ago, and generations previously whereby the bus driver would stop the bus and be able to physically remove the offending brats. Today, if I did this, I'd be sacked!

What is the world coming to? Have we gone completly soft on todays' younger generation? What are we bus drivers supposed to do about the unruly behaviour ON the buses? Why must the hands of the bus driver be tied when it comes to how to deal with the little a****wipes? I for one would, at a minimum like to put them off and make them walk to their sports ground or back to school, regardless of distance and daytime temperature. Perhaps if a few were put off the bus and word was to spread to the other grades and other schools, then just maybe the little brats would start to behave... Then again I'm probably dreaming!

Sue Gill, if you would like an insight into what realy goes on on the school buses, feel free to PM or email me.

[Swift]

The only message they will understand is fear.Fear of consequences.
When will we come to the realisation that the old fashioned way is the only way and trying to appeal to their reasoning will not work in alot of cases.
Stop trying to make yourselves feel pure of heart and hit the little bastards where it hurts,whatever that may be .Simplicity is a wonderful thing.Try it.

[hornetfig]

Totally agree, but the reality as we've been told by bus drivers is that police are reluctant to act in cases involving children under 18.

Only because they're scared of the result of little Missy crying assault and the ensuing bureaucratic investigation. That can be fixed with a change of the law.

The reluctance is understandable from one standpoint at least. Children and teenagers do make mistakes and to be saddled with a criminal record at a tender age could be devastating.

I don't accept that. But I did say they should be subject to community service orders. There is no requirement for the magistrate to record a conviction and in many cases I would agree there is no need to. But clearly fines and cautions don't work - offenders must do organised, correctional, community service.

I would also support the de-cloaking of childrens' courts for offenders aged 14 and over. I see no reason why someone of that age should be, prima facie, entitled to anonomity.

[NEPEAN_DUDE]

BRING BACK THE CANE
Six of the best and a smack around the earhole that will make them take notice .

[Mother]

I've just heard on the news that a 14-year-old who threw a rock at a bus and subsequently inured a passenger has been giving a stern warning.

Yet again!

As for school kids on buses, I have stopped catching the bus home between 1450 and 1620.

Sue, I certainly appreciate what you are the other residents are trying to do. But I feel there is really the need for action. A school pupil who misbehaves in any way on the bus should be off that bus immediately and the free pass confiscated. Too bad, if the kid has to walk home a long distance. All the kid has to do is to behave on the bus, and (s)he will continue to enjoy the benefits of free or subsidised travel.

I'm very concerned at the idea of an incident report. I think today's bus drivers are stressed enough, and they do not need more paperwork to do. Nor do the bus companies need any more paperwork.

The offending child needs punitive action immediately.

Nevertheless Sue, thank for for your work & for posting on our discussion board, and I wish you success.

[Rail Bus]

BRING BACK THE CANE Six of the best and a smack around the earhole that will make them take notice.

In that case, us bus drivers ought to be given canes to carry to! Somehow I dfon't think that will ever happen. As I said in my last post, the world has taken a "softly softly" approach. I agree with hornetfig:

Totally agree, but the reality as we've been told by bus drivers is that police are reluctant to act in cases involving children under 18.

Only because they're scared of the result of little Missy crying assault and the ensuing bureaucratic investigation. That can be fixed with a change of the law.

If the kids of today were taught a bit of discipline then we wouldn't have incidents of rock throwing, assault of bus drivers (or anybody else), and vandalism. Hell, even our buses might be clean after a run!

The punishment has to deter a person from doing the wrong thing. In this society, it does not. That is how 17/18 y.o a****wipes get a mere "slap on the wrist" for acts of annimal cruelty. Perhaps we should grab these "creatures" by their ankles and swing them around and smash them against the ground??? The world is too soft on criminals. The Governments are more interested in revenue than protecting the community from criminal-types.

[Bundy Bear]

I've just heard on the news that a 14-year-old who threw a rock at a bus and subsequently inured a passenger has been giving a stern warning.

Yet again!

As for school kids on buses, I have stopped catching the bus home between 1450 and 1620.

Sue, I certainly appreciate what you are the other residents are trying to do. But I feel there is really the need for action. A school pupil who misbehaves in any way on the bus should be off that bus immediately and the free pass confiscated. Too bad, if the kid has to walk home a long distance. All the kid has to do is to behave on the bus, and (s)he will continue to enjoy the benefits of free or subsidised travel.

I'm very concerned at the idea of an incident report. I think today's bus drivers are stressed enough, and they do not need more paperwork to do. Nor do the bus companies need any more paperwork.

The offending child needs punitive action immediately.

Nevertheless Sue, thank for for your work & for posting on our discussion board, and I wish you success.

The 14 yr old girl from shalvey was arrested and spoken to at Mt Druitt police station with her mother and was given a caution.Two 14yr old boys appeared in the childrens court yesterday over the school bus incident at Mays Hill a few weeks ago.
As for incident reports we do them now for just about anything from road rage to a passenger complaining about overloading

[Simes]

Simple answer, someone else on the bus to "monitor" the kids and come down on em like a pallet of bricks if they muck up. Proper CCTV to back them and the driver up?

Where I went, we weren't angels, but, the school were all to happy to take reports from drivers of rowdiness and follow them up (stand in line on the tennis court for a lunch hour, in summer, without moving, walk around the oval in full uniform with a bag full of house bricks) at the time, especially in the younger grades, alot of us thought that you couldn't get away with anything.

[Rail Bus]

Simes, I like your ideas on school kid behaviour, but why should the bus companies (eg Pubtrek, Casula Bus & Coach, Ausguays, Coachline, Choice, etc, etc) spend $$$ on CCTV for older buses? They trust their drivers to keep Order in a calm manner. What can I do, as a driver, when I have a school that is is too tight in the hip pocket to order enough buses to carry all their "little darlings" to the sporting venue in one trip? This was my case on Thursday just gone. I had a full standing load (I wont say how many) and kids taking advantage of not being able to be clearly identified by the teachers or by me, so as to carry on stupidly. I have a few tricks that I use, but on the whole I can't realy do much.

My hands are glued to the steering wheel when it comes to dealing with school kids. However, I Knew this when I took on the job. It doesn't make life any easier knowing that before you sign-on for a school bus drivers' job (or for a pub crawl), however I feel somewhat "compensated" by the fact that most of my school runs go off without a hitch. For the days that aren't "smooth sailing" knock-off time can't come soon enough!!!

[Simes]

Well that would be up to the operator leopard lover, I was thinking more of the route operators who also do school runs when I was typing that. As for charter operators, dunno.

Whats better leopard lover? A bus full of kids or a bus full of drunks on their way to pure platnium?

[Wrong Way - Go Back]

I love it that bus drivers complain about students when they encounter them for about 30 minutes each day. Teachers put up with the same behaviour all day, every day. Remember that next time you whinge about teachers supposedly having an easy life.

[Rail Bus]

Whats better leopard lover? A bus full of kids or a bus full of drunks on their way to pure platnium?

As much as I find some school kids troublesome, atleast they're sober! Doing all-night pub crawls, as much as it's a part of my job (at times), the school work is easier. We have some drivers in the company I work for that wont do weekend work. I'll happily do it, but I prefer day work.

[Mr Bean]

I firmly agree with many of the comments posted on this board, but particularly am concerned with the fact that the bus driver can do very little to curb inappropriate behaviour by school students. Being able to verbally direct or physically remove the offender(s) from the bus as Leopard Lover suggested would be the simplest and most effective solution, provided all drivers knew how to use the power responsibly. Simply asking them to stop is ineffective because these days they know that the driver can do nothing to force them to stop misbehaving. Paperwork is time consuming and hence costly and within the current constraints of the law is ineffective.

STA drivers are given instructions on how to handle such behaviour - and that is to stop the bus, open both doors, contact the radio room and wait for an inspector or police to attend. While this is reasonable, it does not deal with the behaviour at the exact time of occurring, and offenders are obviously going to leave the bus before the law enforcement arrives. The driver frequently also feels 'outnumbered' and humiliated by the students.

Sue, are you still following this thread? If so, thanks for taking the time to post on this board and seek our views. Of course I'm sure there are many other views available from different parts of the community. Please keep us up to date with progress and advise ways in which we can help