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Old Sydney Tram Remnants

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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Frosty » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:32 pm

boronia wrote:
Stu wrote: The route 389 has one service p/weekday that operates from Lawson St, Paddington, .

THis is intriguing. It is an outbound service to BJI, after the AM peak or school times.

I can't work out what it would serve down there, or which way it goes to connect to the 389.

Any info on it, Stu?


The service departs at 9:20AM. The only thing I could think of is it's next to Sydney Grammar School Edgecliff Prep and next Weigall Sportsground.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby 743 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:24 pm

You can call up the interactive 389 route map on transportnsw.info to see the variant.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Fleet Lists » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:34 pm

For the record - but it does not explain why it operates
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Stu » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:29 pm

It must be a throw back from the good ol' tram days. There are quite a number of surrounding streets that have the hall marks of being designed for trams which would assist in special running from the former depot at Rushcutters Bay into the Paddington area. There is a dedicated lay over area for a bus that has time to spare before operating this unique and very much individual route 389 service from Lawson St, the lay over area is on Nield Ave at the corner of New Sth Head Rd, Rushcutters Bay, virtually a stones through away from the former tram depot.

This rte 389 service normally only picks up one elderly lady. From Lawson St the service crosses over Goodhope St, right Alma St, right Cambridge St and then left into Gurner St which returns to normal rte 389. These streets appear to have the expected angles/curves associated with a tram line weaving through the streets and dwellings of suburbia.

- currently operated by P-depot and has been since the CBD bus network changes.
- operated by W-Depot from September 2013 (major changes to shifts relating to the creation of quite a number of part
time shifts until October 2015 (CBD bus network changes)
- operated by R-Depot from May 2013 (route optimisation) until September 2013.
- operated by W-Depot.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:54 pm

boronia wrote:The books in Keenan's series were:
1) Tramways of Sydney
2) Eastern lines
3) South Eastern Lines
4) Watsons Bay Line
5) South Western Lines
6) Western Lines
7) Ryde Line
8.) Rockdale & Enfield Lines
9) North Sydney
10) Manly Line
11) City Lines
12) Newcastle Tramways

Which ones are still available in STM or any other shop?
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby boronia » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:57 pm

I'm not aware of any proposals to connect the Watsons Bay and Bellevue Hill lines; even a logical connection at Park/William/Yurong/Boomerang was avoided.

Probably a direct line along Neild Ave or up Ocean St or Edgecliffe Rd would be the most obvious.

There were lots of backstreet runs around Waterloo/Surry Hills provided for sporting traffic, also Greens Rd Paddington.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby boronia » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:58 pm

tonyp wrote:
boronia wrote:The books in Keenan's series were:
1) Tramways of Sydney
2) Eastern lines
3) South Eastern Lines
4) Watsons Bay Line
5) South Western Lines
6) Western Lines
7) Ryde Line
8.) Rockdale & Enfield Lines
9) North Sydney
10) Manly Line
11) City Lines
12) Newcastle Tramways

Which ones are still available in STM or any other shop?

ARHS has an online shop, you could check the titles there.
http://www.railwaybookshop.com.au/
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:05 pm

Stu wrote:
This rte 389 service normally only picks up one elderly lady.

The Minister's grandmother? :wink:

This sort of journey is typically a shopping bus for locals. It's quite a climb up the hill there to Glenmore Rd and there's no other really feasible way to get to the regional shopping centre, BJ, by PT. I suppose there isn't a return journey because it's a downhill walk then!

The trams served the natural lines of travel in those days but Paddington's nearest supermarkets now are at Edgecliff, so there is no direct line of PT. Nowadays a resident of Paddington would drive one's Rolls Royce to Edgecliff, adding to the car mayhem in what should be a natural PT catchment if the routes were there.

When I lived up at the Oxford St end of Glenmore Rd when Paddo was still a bit of a slum, I'd walk to Edgeciff. Great going down there, but then getting back up the hill with the shopping was another matter! In the end the weight of the milk and drink bottles got me but it would have been a bit self-defeating to drink them as a means of getting back up the hill. :roll:

There were no tram line proposals for lower Paddington shown in Keenan.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Frosty » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:24 pm

Reminds me of another few routes in the Eastern Suburbs the 342 and 341. Very weird routes that only to Kingsford. I'm surprised they weren't eliminated in the 2015 timetable change when the 345 was eliminated.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Frosty » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:24 pm

Reminds me of another few routes in the Eastern Suburbs the 342 and 341. Very weird routes that only to Kingsford. I'm surprised they weren't eliminated in the 2015 timetable change when the 345 was eliminated.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby boronia » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:54 pm

tonyp wrote:The trams served the natural lines of travel in those days but Paddington's nearest supermarkets now are at Edgecliff, so there is no direct line of PT. Nowadays a resident of Paddington would drive one's Rolls Royce to Edgecliff, adding to the car mayhem in what should be a natural PT catchment if the routes were there.
.

BMWs seem to be the car (or SUV now) of choice for Paddo residents
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby gld59 » Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:36 am

tonyp wrote:This sort of journey is typically a shopping bus for locals. It's quite a climb up the hill there to Glenmore Rd and there's no other really feasible way to get to the regional shopping centre, BJ, by PT. I suppose there isn't a return journey because it's a downhill walk then!

Carrying shopping? They'd probably cab it back.

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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:01 am

gld59 wrote:Carrying shopping? They'd probably cab it back.

gld

Not me, I'm stubborn (although maybe getting a bit old for it now). :lol:
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Stu » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:07 pm

I have a number of questions relating to Bondi trams with a particular focus in rte 389. I know the rte 389 follows a former tram line although from Old Sth Head Rd it appears that the rte 389 follows bits and pieces of other potential branch lines and/or special running lines. I'm aware that there was a line via Bondi Rd and a line via Birriga Rd although the rte 389 cuts straight down the middle.

1). Was there a line on Old Sth Head Rd between O'Brien St and Edgecliff Rd with connections to Bondi Rd at both Penkevill St and Flood St? 
O'Brien St then connects with Hall St (to Bondi Beach), the route 389 then turns left from O'Brien into Glenayr Ave.

2). I'm wondering if there was a branch line from Campbell Pde, left Hall St, right Glenayr Ave, The Seven Ways intersection, cross over Blair St, into Glenayr Ave, curving right into O'Donnell St, left Mitchell St and then both a left or right turn into Murriverie St - the infrastructure and architecture looks as it should so to speak. There are a few shops at the location of Murriverie St & Mitchell St, one particular building (a cafe) appears to set quite a way back from the kerb, the footpath area is huge which makes me thing there may have been a tram terminus here. 
Referring to Murriverie St again, was there a tram line that travelled in this street heading West to turn right into Old Sth Head Rd, veering left into Newcastle St and then left into Old Sth Head Rd?

3).  Warner's Ave: was it possible that this street had a tram line that was used as a short cut between Campbell Pde and Old Sth Head Rd? The Western end of Warner's Ave at Old Sth Head Rd has the resemblance of what looks like an a angled turn to the left, the property boundary of the park gives this away, the fence is angled sharply thus providing a large grassed area near the footpath. From Warners Ave the potential line may have turned left into Old Sth Head Rd which may have provided the following options:
 - Left into  Curlewis St to connect with the Bondi via Bellevue Hill line
- Veer left up hill into  Birriga Rd to connect with the Bondi via Bellevue Hill line.
- Right into O'Sullivan Rd to run special to New Sth Head Rd of which the corner of New Sth Head Rd resembles a 'tram curve'.'

Warner's Ave could have also served as a special running line linking Campbell Pde to Old Sth Head Rd along with other tram line intersecting points along the way. 

4). Seven Ways Bondi: I like the way Warner's Ave cuts through the Seven Ways Bondi. The section of Warner's Ave at the Seven Ways is a vehicular lane way with parking on either side. The street infrastructure and the design of the building at the Seven Ways Bondi certainly appear to provide clues for possible tram lines in this particular area.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Glen » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:21 pm

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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby hornetfig » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:32 pm

There were not other tram lines in the area. That area of Bondi Beach and North Bondi is all 1920s subdivision and so, along with being the first areas of Sydney to having all of water, sewerage, no night cart lanes, electricity, telephone and houses with garages, the area was also served by new-fangled motor omnibus.

More specifically, Blair Street is an old street, constructed for the sewer line. Murriverie Road is an old street, constructed for the sandstone quarries. The streets associated with subdivision started with Hall Street and Gould Street. There's a sort of a grid, and it sort of goes wonky around Blair Street because that doesn't fit the grid. Warners Ave fits the grid. But I don't know why it's a dual carriageway avenue when all the other streets were three lanes (some since widened to four lanes). In those days subdivision was done by little developers on a small scale (between say half a dozen and a few dozen lots), so you get some strange street layouts not caused by terrain.

Glenayr Ave used to look more contiguous but Seven Ways was a big open expanse of concrete road. Have a look at the 1943 aerial footage:

Image

The 389 bus used to use Glenayr Ave between Blair Street and Murriverie Road outbound. Until the late-1980s. But in the 1943 aerial the street was narrower, so the original bus services in the area may not have used that section of the street at all. However, the oil tracks on the road are suggestive of a bus service.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby boronia » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:16 pm

Stu wrote:I have a number of questions relating to Bondi trams with a particular focus in rte 389. I know the rte 389 follows a former tram line although from Old Sth Head Rd it appears that the rte 389 follows bits and pieces of other potential branch lines and/or special running lines. I'm aware that there was a line via Bondi Rd and a line via Birriga Rd although the rte 389 cuts straight down the middle.
.

The Bondi via Bellevue line was cut back to Ocean St in 1954 and replaced by the 388 bus which operated via Kings Cross and Ocean St to take over the tram route.
Trams continued to operate to Ocean St until 1960 until replaced by the 389, which then extended to North Bondi via OSH Rd and Glenyar Ave replacing rte 361-2 services. Furher changes were made in 1960 when the Bondi Rd tram was closed.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Stu » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:33 am

Thanks to all for the feedback, certainly is an interesting historical area.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Swift » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:40 pm

After closure of the trams how long did the tracks and overhead remain?
Example, say in 1964, would there have been plenty of the system evident?
What about the 1970s?
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby boronia » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:42 pm

Overhead was removed fairly quickly. Initially the track grooves were filled in with asphalt, but covering or removal took longer, depending on road condition. Tracks along Canterbury Rd were still visible well into the 70s for example.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Tonymercury » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:12 am

The Junctions at Redfern and Regent Sts were only removed with a major road rebuild in the 80s. They had been covered several times.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby captainch » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:23 pm

TODAY is a very historical day! 55 years ago today the last tram ran in Sydney ,From La-Parouse to Randwick workshops,A very young captain.ch. rode that tram in 1961! :shock: :roll:
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:37 am

captainch wrote:TODAY is a very historical day! 55 years ago today the last tram ran in Sydney ,From La-Parouse to Randwick workshops,A very young captain.ch. rode that tram in 1961! :shock: :roll:

Also thus the anniversary of one of Sydney's most "brilliant" transport planning masterstrokes.

The closure occurred on the eve of the moment when UNSW went into explosive student growth and rapidly shot to the top as one of Australia's largest universities. The mass transit system to handle this growth was in place and they replaced it with low capacity buses at the critical time. So naturally lots of students drove to the university. POW hospital was also about to enter a period of expansion that would see it eventually serving as the campus for three major hospitals.

The area was also at this time entering a boom of four-storey apartment block construction replacing many of the older free-standing houses and a consequent substantial rise in population. This construction started in the 1950s because the tram was there and along corridors further out than high-density residential development had hitherto taken place in Sydney.

Image
(Rob Caldwell photo)

As late as the late 1950s there were efforts to retain this part of the tram system by those who knew what the eventual consequences of closing it would be, e.g. Rob Caldwell's scheme:

Image

Time to reflect that, post Bradfield, incompetence has been the hallmark of Sydney transport planning and has been ever since.

Maroubra Junction 1958 (Rob Caldwell photo):
Image
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Swift » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:54 am

...particularly for the Maroubra Jcn shot. Brings a tear to the eye.
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Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby captainch » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:11 pm

on the radio this morning a caller suggested they do as in san franciso use old trams on the new light rail line from Gosford to the entrance! He suggested that they use all the historic tram from the loftus tram museum!!!............................I.m sure after a packed trip home on a overcrowded 4 car train in peak hour be great to be greated by a coupled set of "O"S" or 2 "C" cars going to the entrence or for the "ferralls on "ice" MAYBE the "prison tram" DO SOME OF THESE PEOPLE ever think first! :D :shock: :roll:
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