Old Sydney Tram Remnants

[gld59]

I drove along there a week or two ago. Unless they've used the site for materials storage for a different project (which I would have thought rather unlikely), the O'Dea works are certainly hydraulic in nature. And unless sewers use circular section concrete pipes big enough for a person to crawl through, I'd say it's for stormwater.

gld

[boronia]

It seems to be stormwater related, but reading into the reply we got, it is a different project.

[mandonov]

It may be a Sydney Water rather than a City of Sydney project, so the PR person who emailed back may not have been aware of it.

[boronia]

He is obviously aware of it because he makes specific reference to re-instating the tram line, and provides a link for information.

[boronia]

RMS is about to undertake some remedial work on Anzac Pde Kensington, esp around Ascot St where there has been a long history of road subsidence.

Noticed some new markings today on the surface in Ascot St

DSC06237 (Small).JPG (102.27 KiB) Viewed 5210 times

DSC06238 (Small).JPG (92.11 KiB) Viewed 5210 times

A short section of rail has been popping up through the surface on a regular basis, but this survey shows the other track is still in place.

I'm surprised RMS hasn't deferred this for a few more months to let CSELR to pick up the tab.

And it would make a lot of sense to put CSELR tracks back into Ascot St to connect the depot with the Kingsford branch

[Tonymercury]

And one of the reasons for this thread -


10 Nov 53

No new trams for Sydney
The Minister for Transport, Mr. E. Wetherell, announced that the Department of Transport would buy no more trams, and existing tram services would gradually be replaced by buses. The main factor, he said, was the high cost of replacing old tram tracks. "Buses the world over have proved themselves the most modern and efficient type of public transport, and have superseded trams in all important overseas cities," he said.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/in-the-he ... z3r7Eb0Yel
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[Bedford-29]

And 54 years down the track they are putting trams back into Sydney.

[tonyp]

And it would make a lot of sense to put CSELR tracks back into Ascot St to connect the depot with the Kingsford branch

Tell me about it

No new trams for Sydney
The Minister for Transport, Mr. E. Wetherell, announced that the Department of Transport would buy no more trams, and existing tram services would gradually be replaced by buses. The main factor, he said, was the high cost of replacing old tram tracks. "Buses the world over have proved themselves the most modern and efficient type of public transport, and have superseded trams in all important overseas cities," he said.

Somebody in academe could bide their time by doing a little analysis of how much these "little" transport planning mistakes have cost society in dollar terms.

[moa999]

Albeit - the trams we are now getting are probably more akin to a train than to those old trams.

Gasoline / Diesel technology jumped ahead for 50yrs supported by cheap oil, bugger the environmental cost.
Now electricty technology is jumping ahead (cars solar), supported by clean and plentiful solar and wind and nuclear, actually scratch that supported by dirty coal.

[Tonymercury]

and have superseded trams in all important overseas cities," he said.

I suppose that just about works if you insert 'English speaking' before 'overseas' and ignore San Francisco

[matthewg]

I suppose that just about works if you insert 'English speaking' before 'overseas' and ignore San Francisco

And that is the thinking now too. When they say 'world best' they usually mean Anglophone world, not the whole world. If they move out of the English speaking comfort zone they might look at Western Europe - a little. They certainly won't look further east for inspiration - after all what would those counties/cities under the Soviet thumb for 50 years have to teach us...

The consultants advising on the CESLR are US based, and it shows in their designs.

[tonyp]

what would those counties/cities under the Soviet thumb for 50 years have to teach us...

But that doesn't include the Central European countries of Germany, Switzerland and Austria which all have top-class tram practice. Looking at France is simply looking at a country that's still in the learning process itself - they do some nice associated urban design, that's all.

Getting back to old Sydney tram remnants (the human kind), Sydney had it's own home-grown world-leading practice, though ironically, like the railways, eyes were turned towards the USA from the late 19th to the early 20th century as a source of good, practical practice more relevant to the Australian situation than UK practice. The USA went down the transport gurgler after that of course.

Then, mid century, just when Australia was becoming more independent of UK in foreign policy and national identity, what do the transport agencies do? Turn their backs on their long and brilliant period of independent innovation and turn to the mother country again (doh). This shows at its worst in the bus industry which decided to tag along with the long and dysfunctional decline of the British bus industry and later the railways decided it was great to import UK advice (which strangely coincided with the railways becoming less functional shortly thereafter).

Trams, they didn't know what to do in NSW except ignore the only surviving reservoir of local expertise (Melbourne) on principle, deny their own brilliant history, and go ambling off in search of any snake oil salesman who offered the most expensive price (presumably on the basis of the more it costs the better it must be).

No wonder we're still looking wistfully at old Sydney tram remnants!

[boronia]

And it would make a lot of sense to put CSELR tracks back into Ascot St to connect the depot with the Kingsford branch

Tell me about it

I went to one of the "forums" last week and was chatting to one of the Altrac "consultants". I mentioned the line in Ascot St and how it could be connected to the Kingsford branch. He wasn't aware of it, but thought it was a "good idea" worth considering.

[boronia]

Presumably you mean O'Dea Ave?

There were there about 3 weeks ago, but I recently saw some mention of the road being resurfaced. I'll check it out tomorrow.

There's some works (stormwater) west of Gadigal Ave which may affect that segment of track, there's still a segment east of Gadigal too and that was there, well, yesterday.

They have started work east of Gadigal now as well. About half the length towards South Dowling St has been dug up.

[tonyp]

He wasn't aware of it,

Why should he be? The world was only created in 2014.

[AEC Decker]

Presumably you mean O'Dea Ave?

The work is in O'Dea Ave replacing stormwater pipes and when AEC Decker went past on Wednesday morning in 2597 on a city bound 303 ALL the tram track in that section had been removed.

AEC Decker also noticed a rusty tram wire hook under the middle arch under the Railway Colonnade access ramp at the western end of Eddy Ave.

[Stu]

On Thursday I noticed a section of tram tracks on O'Dea Ave raised up on three sleepers sitting on gravel back fill, it looked like the tracks were in place waiting for concrete to be poured.

[tonyp]

The site of the Dive in Alison Road is about to be swept into history. Don't know if there are any remains there but right now would be the time to go and photograph them.

[boronia]

He is obviously aware of it because he makes specific reference to re-instating the tram line, and provides a link for information.

The work seems to be complete now, but there is no trace of any tram lines anywhere along O'Dea Ave.

[captainch]

the trees they are protesting about,are they the original tram line to the tramway workshops & googee & Clovelly line?????????

[boronia]

No Captain. they are along the lower level of the embankment. There are some photos in the CSELR thread.

[captainch]

was that the old racecourse platform siding! below the coogee/Clovelly line!

[boronia]

Yes, that is the one.

I had many trips along that line on AETA and THS tours.

[tonyp]

I find it quite concerning that the Dive doesn't seem to have been mentioned in the CSELR modifications assessment as a historical item. It's been there since the 19th century and was the site of the first terminus of Sydney's first suburban tram line. Are there any remains of it still there, like the platform?

[Swift]

What's this dive? Some sort of tram tunnel? Or a description of the Randwick area?