• Advertisement

NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby Transtopic » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:30 am

mandonov wrote:If you actually read what's been announced then you'll see that the aim is for a 'nuts and bolts' targeted upgrade first, to then be transitioned to a full blown HSR.

You're being incredibly naive if you believe that the government's message was focussed on a medium speed rail upgrade followed by a transition to a high speed rail network. The HSR was clearly the focus with the "nuts and bolts" MSR mentioned as an afterthought. The HSR is never going to happen and it's just a belated attempt in the dying days of the government to boost its support in regional NSW. The government would have more credibility if it just focused on medium speed ralil.
Transtopic
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:10 pm
Has thanked: 181 times
Been thanked: 121 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby Swift » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:49 am

gilberations wrote:America is doing it, that’s why they’re doing it now too

We have been talking this up since the VFT proposal in the early 1990s, so it will look embarrassing to keep making announcements much longer without action, when the U.S is now joining Europe and Asia, while we continue to dither.
2582 in George Street Haymarket 2005.
Ahh..round tops! Remember those?
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 9894
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 569 times
Been thanked: 457 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby grog » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:21 am

I'll remind people that this shouldn't be a surprise - it was all in the Future Transport master plan, both the draft and the final version. Higher Speed Rail (defined as improving the current alignment through alignment changes and rolling stock improvements to match the current driving time) was listed as a 0-10 years initiative. Reserving the alignment for future High Speed Rail was listed as 10-20 year initiative, and having the High Speed Rail operational was listed as 20+ year initiative.

Nothing about this announcement makes me think that has changed, but I think there has been a realisation that some of the Higher Speed Rail goals might require sections of new alignment and that these should be built to HSR curve radius to allow future incorporation into a HSR network.

You would probably want to plan the alignment for full HSR first and then see if building targeted sections as bypasses can achieve the initial goal. Think about how the Hume and Pacific highways were upgraded - a section at a time over decades as funding was available.

As an example, if you wanted to achieve a 3 hour Canberra to Sydney journey as part of the 0-10 year Higher Speed Rail initiative, if you sorted out capacity in Sydney with some quad, build a new alignment from the future HSR route between Douglas Park and Mittagong, and did track upgrades and targeted curve easing on the rest of the route to Canberra you could easily make the required time savings.

As another example of the least likely route to get full HSR, the route to Orange could probably get to Higher Speed Rail standard with faster running within Sydney, targeted upgrades and passing loops in the Blue Mountains, and maybe some new alignment west of Lithgow.

I'd expect that what is to be delivered as part of this investigation is a plan for a multi-decade upgrade, much like the previously mentioned Hume and Pacific highway upgrades.

This also makes the current investigation unlike any of the previous plans, in that the past plans have all focused on vast, capital city to capital city networks designed to replace air travel and be built in an expensive big-bang approach.
grog
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:09 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 122 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby Linto63 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:01 am

Reality is that despite the premier's denials, this is just a pork barreling exercise. Come April it will be in the filing cabinet with all the other proposals.
Linto63
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:44 pm
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 110 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby neilrex » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:49 pm

tonyp wrote:The curves south of Waterfall are an obvious starting point, but there are also other relevant issues on the south coast like signalling, duplication, level crossings etc.

The reaction in Nowra funnily enough is fear of the end the rural lifestyle and the conversion of Nowra into Waterloo! Frankly medium-speed rail - a journey of less than two hours - would be great on its own. When you live down here, Wollongong is the city that provides everything, except the really major medical stuff and of course employment. More of those two needs might gravitate down to Wollongong if the transport was significantly faster, but not necessarily high speed. Wollongong is the closest major relief valve to Sydney, if only they'd improve the rail. The problem is the political contempt with which it is treated by both sides, with the result that nothing gets done.


The problem I have with this sort of belief, is that it is based on the misconception that everything is in the CBD.

Provided you lived close enough to walk to, or park at, one of the south coast stations, train travel to the Sydney CBD is already reasonably competitive, and could be made more so with some obvious improvements.

But once your job is at Parramatta, or Bankstown, or Kensington, or Revesby, well that's when driving becomes vastly superior to public transport.

The bus network is pretty good, if your distance horizon is on only 10 km, then an effective accomplished speed of 20 km/hr doesn't look too bad. If your distance horizon is further, then it doesn't.
neilrex
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby STMPainter2018 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:29 pm

I'll just say this on the HSR announcement: I do love me some comedy...
STMPainter2018
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:38 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby Frosty » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:33 pm

If some private investors or company came along wanted to build HSR without any public money I would let them go right ahead. Private sector knows that HSR is an election trick simply a money hole thats why they haven't come forward yet. A PPP idea wouldn't be much better it could easily become SELR on steroids and be the worlds largest white elephant.
Frosty
 
Posts: 1754
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:16 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 114 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby tonyp » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:33 pm

A lot of Wollongong residents work in Sydney but very few in Shoalhaven would, the duration of the train journey is just too long for a daily commute. However a lot work in Wollongong. My point about Wollongong is that reverse commuting (from Sydney) is already quite strong and if the journey time was substantially improved, it would be an incentive for business and government to establish themselves more strongly in Wollongong which is equidistant from Sydney and Nowra and thus ideal as an employment centre away from Sydney.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7650
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 828 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby neilrex » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:51 am

I used to travel from Sydney to Wollongong, a lot, for work.

I did so while living at three different locations in Sydney.

I drove there, which I disliked, and I also took the train. Unless you were fortuitously within about 10 minutes of Central, Hurstville, or Sutherland station, AND you could park there at the time you wanted to go, AND your work destination was within 10 minutes walk of one of the Wollongong stations, AND your work starting time was flexible enough to cope with an unreliable hourly service, AND your work finishing time was flexible enough that you didn't find yourself regularly waiting 55 minutes for a train to go home, then catching the train to Wollongong as a reverse commuter is going to be a very unattractive option.

That's a lot of IF's, most of which would not necessarily be solved by faster trains.

A Hurstville to Strathfield metro might help.
neilrex
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby tonyp » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:08 pm

Too late, counter-commuting to Wollongong is already well-established and it's the strongest corridor for counter-commuting in greater Sydney, not surprising considering it is a significant, commercial, university and industrial city only 80 km from Sydney. UOW was the main driver for counter-commuting and probably still is, but work and other reasons figure too. The south coast line isn't in fact the only public transport corridor from Sydney either as there is a full-time bus service from Campbelltown to provide links with W and SW Sydney. At the Wollongong end, the Gong Shuttle provides a circulator to distribute people from the railway and local buses and the Port Kembla industrial area is served by rail and bus. All the public transport is pretty-much in place but the rail service needs to be signîficantly faster.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7650
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 828 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby neilrex » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:15 pm

This interesting website

https://www.rome2rio.com/s/Wollongong/Campbelltown

claims to compare the time and cost of travelling from campbelltown to Wollongong.

But the comparison is misleading. If you live in one of the suburbs of Campbelltown, you would have to get to wherever the 887 bus leaves from ( by slow public transport or difficult parking ), wait for the bus, get from the bus stop at the other end to where you are going, and then the same coming back. I'd count on the whole trip by bus taking almost 2 hours.

Compared to 41 minutes by driving. That is saving 2 hours a day.

This is the compelling advantage of driving yourself to places which many public transport "advocates" find hard to understand.
Last edited by neilrex on Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
neilrex
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby neilrex » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:17 pm

One bus an hour on weekdays, last at 7:30 PM. One service on Sundays. Not what I would call a full-time service.
neilrex
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby neilrex » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:40 pm

Real world example. My cousin lives at Currans Hill. Time from her place to Wollongong station, usually 1:48 by 2 buses. Some trips 1:58. A few trips 1:34 with a tight connection. One service an hour.

Driving time is 45-50 minutes with a choice of Appin or Wilton. Go whenever you like.

And that is to Wollongong station.

Now move the destination to some places 1-3 km from Wollongong station. Driving time is the same: 42-46 minutes. Transport depends on finding a third bus, or a long long walk. Up to another hour.

It's the same going back again. She can leave when she likes. And she can stop and do the shopping on the way.

Even if I was a quite poor student, I'd do whatever it takes to get a car for that trip.

To an office I used to visit near Conniston, google maps is quoting 46 minutes driving and 2 hours 54 minutes ( Currans Hill to Coniston ) by bus.
neilrex
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby tonyp » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:45 am

But you're not saying anything new not already known, even to public transport advocates. There are many journeys within and between cities that are not between major public transport destinations and naturally driving is more attractive. Apart from better public transport coverage (more intense coverage, greater frequency), the most effective way of countering this is with faster public transport. This is where NSW lags behind, for example, WA and it's why the train service has to be significantly speeded up in order to be competitive, even with interchanges. Bus services also need to be speeded up with measures such as traffic light priority, bus lanes and all-door loading.

Incidentally, publicised driving times never, ever factor in parking when you get to the end of the journey - the time spent finding somewhere to park, which is often far from the desired destination, and the walking time to and from the carparking. Parking (for free, otherwise it looses its comparative advantage) is notoriously difficult in Sydney and impossible near major centres. It's virtually impossible to park near Wollongong University or near the CBD unless you arrive with the birds at dawn. You need to transfer to the Gong Shuttle or the university shuttles, so that needs to be factored into the journey time. The weekday Campbelltown buses also go via UOW.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7650
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 828 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:43 pm

Please back to Light rail after the Wollongong - Campbelltown diversion.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
 
Posts: 20402
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:49 am
Location: The Shire
Has thanked: 1005 times
Been thanked: 1103 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby tonyp » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:42 pm

The topic is about high speed rail and the argument is about why higher speed on the south coast is necessary to attract people out of cars and to attract more economic activity in Wollongong. That encompasses all the ways to get between Wollongong and various parts of Sydney.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7650
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 828 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: NSW High Speed Rail... Again

Postby boronia » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:53 pm

The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2019
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 17950
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 260 times
Been thanked: 1637 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Previous


  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Sydney / NSW

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: boronia, Google [Bot], Stu and 20 guests