• Advertisement

History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby J_Busworth » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:53 am

Now that we know that Transit Systems will take over the Inner West STA bus services, I'm interested to know just how big a history government buses have in the inner west? Depots, Routes, Fun Facts, I would love to find out.
https://transportnsw.wordpress.com
Eternally waiting for the Eastern Suburbs rail line to make it to Randwick
J_Busworth
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:56 am
Location: Sydney's Eastern Suburbs
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby tonyp » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:13 am

J_Busworth wrote:How that we know that Transit Systems will take over the Inner West STA bus services, I'm interested to know just how big a history government buses have in the inner west? Depots, Routes, Fun Facts, I would love to find out.

Greg Travers "From City to Suburb" would be one of your best source of information, particularly the route details in the appendices.

Basically, the provision of tram services and train lines in the inner west was so dense that there was little need for bus services to infill between them until the trams were finished in 1957-58. The earliest inner west government bus services were mainly concentrated further west to fill in and extend from tram and train services around Ashfield-Strathfield-Canterbury, with some through-routes to the city via Parramatta Rd.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 827 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby J_Busworth » Mon May 28, 2018 9:04 pm

tonyp wrote:
J_Busworth wrote:How that we know that Transit Systems will take over the Inner West STA bus services, I'm interested to know just how big a history government buses have in the inner west? Depots, Routes, Fun Facts, I would love to find out.

Greg Travers "From City to Suburb" would be one of your best source of information, particularly the route details in the appendices.

Basically, the provision of tram services and train lines in the inner west was so dense that there was little need for bus services to infill between them until the trams were finished in 1957-58. The earliest inner west government bus services were mainly concentrated further west to fill in and extend from tram and train services around Ashfield-Strathfield-Canterbury, with some through-routes to the city via Parramatta Rd.


Thanks for the suggestion of Greg Travers "From City to Suburb."

Whilst it was hard to track down a copy in good condition, I found one online from New Zealand and it must be one of the best books I've ever seen. There is such detail in the writing and the route histories.
https://transportnsw.wordpress.com
Eternally waiting for the Eastern Suburbs rail line to make it to Randwick
J_Busworth
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:56 am
Location: Sydney's Eastern Suburbs
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby robert » Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pm

It is hoped to have some sort of history of the area published in Australian Bus magazine later on.

Individual route histories (similar to those for private routes) will also be uploaded to sydneybusroutes.com in due course. Such histories are already there for Inner North routes.
For information about private & Government bus routes in Sydney, look at http://www.sydneybusroutes.com
robert
 
Posts: 1365
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:16 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby boronia » Mon May 28, 2018 10:03 pm

There were a lot of private operators in the inner south and west up to the 1990s. Most have given up their routes to the STA or have been taken over by the current operators.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2019
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 17944
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 260 times
Been thanked: 1637 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby tonyp » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:19 am

robert wrote:It is hoped to have some sort of history of the area published in Australian Bus magazine later on.

Robert's history is now available in Australian Bus magazine current issue, Sept/Oct 2018.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 827 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby tonyp » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:15 pm

In another article in the current issue of Australian Bus, almost as if to complement Robert's article, an observation is made about the scale of the return to private bus operation and the collapse of the old government operations around Australia. It is noted that Transit Systems is now the largest operator of route buses in Australia, followed in order by Transdev, CDC, State Transit, Brisbane City Council and Keolis Downer. State Transit used to be the largest operator.

The fleet ownership situation is not addressed in this comment and it would be interesting to know how many buses are actually owned by each of these operators, given the situation that large quantities of the fleets are owned by state agencies in WA, SA(?), Victoria(?) and NSW. Does anybody have a rough picture of ownership of fleet units among these large operators. Of course we already know that State Transit now owns nil, as the fleet belongs to TfNSW.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 827 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby Frosty » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:29 pm

Very interesting now Transit Systems is the biggest. Transdev is currently the largest operator in Melbourne also the ex Veolia operations. CDC buying out other operators. For some reason I thought Brisbane City Council was bigger than State Transit. Wouldn't route fleets after 2007 in NSW be owned by TfNSW. BCC is interesting does BCC own them or Translink/Queensland Government they have weird funding model where BCC & Queensland government share.
Frosty
 
Posts: 1754
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:16 pm
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 114 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby robert » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:29 pm

For information about private & Government bus routes in Sydney, look at http://www.sydneybusroutes.com
robert
 
Posts: 1365
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:16 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby burrumbus » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:53 am

tonyp wrote:In another article in the current issue of Australian Bus, almost as if to complement Robert's article, an observation is made about the scale of the return to private bus operation and the collapse of the old government operations around Australia. It is noted that Transit Systems is now the largest operator of route buses in Australia, followed in order by Transdev, CDC, State Transit, Brisbane City Council and Keolis Downer. State Transit used to be the largest operator.

The fleet ownership situation is not addressed in this comment and it would be interesting to know how many buses are actually owned by each of these operators, given the situation that large quantities of the fleets are owned by state agencies in WA, SA(?), Victoria(?) and NSW. Does anybody have a rough picture of ownership of fleet units among these large operators. Of course we already know that State Transit now owns nil, as the fleet belongs to TfNSW.

To answer Tony's question.
Transit Systems have a very small number of owned buses in their Adelaide-Torrens Transit business and in their Perth-Swan Transit operation.Plus the pre 2007 fleet in their region 3 operation in Sydney.The rest are owned by the respective state governments.
Transdev own the buses in their Brisbane operation,plus the pre 2007 components of their 2 Sydney companies.
Brisbane City Council fleet is owned by the council.
State Transit Authority is owned by the NSW government.
CDC own the pre 2007 component of their Hillsbus and Forest Coach Lines companys .The rest of CDC's fleet is owned by the various subsidiary companys.Their current path of rapid acquisition of companies with by and large contestable/tenderable contracts is an interesting and very risky path funded by a mountain of debt.CDC are paying top dollar for the businesses with considerable goodwill component for the government contracts and the charter as well.Will be interesting to see if this path stands up,paticurily with the very low profit margins earned by most of the businesses. 3 percent to 12 percent is the average range. .
Keolis Downer.The PATH operation has a very small number of owned buses-with just about all owned by the WA government.The rest of the fleets,except South Western Suburban Transit are owned by the various subsidiary companys.South Western fleet are leased from the Brisbane City Council.
If anyone has additional info to the above please let us know.
I hope that helps Tony.
burrumbus
 
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:12 pm
Has thanked: 976 times
Been thanked: 404 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby 1whoknows » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:18 am

One correction to the above - TSAs Adelaide operation has some 40 or so "owned" buses. One wonders what would happen if they actually lost their contracts!
Cats are best.
User avatar
1whoknows
 
Posts: 3493
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:55 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 248 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby burrumbus » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:34 am

One wonders what would happen if any of these large operators depandant on these "management contracts" would do.It is all very interesting.
burrumbus
 
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:12 pm
Has thanked: 976 times
Been thanked: 404 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby tonyp » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:04 am

Thanks guys. So I gather that in Victoria the privates own their own buses and PTV isn't buying buses for operators? In ACT the buses are owned by TC or ACT govt and in Tasmania and NT the buses are also owned by govt??
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 827 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby burrumbus » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:38 am

Correct Tony.The remaining Melbourne privates(except Transdev)own their own fleets.PTV set vehicle specs but have nothing to do with procuring or owning them.
The ACT GOVERNMENT own the ACTION fleet,and the 2 contractors in Darwin own their own fleets.
burrumbus
 
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:12 pm
Has thanked: 976 times
Been thanked: 404 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby busrider » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:53 am

Some corrections to some of the above; the Transperth fleet is 100% government owned, although there have previously been some buses owned by the operators, there aren't any such buses anymore. In Adelaide, Torrens Transit owns about 53 vehicles by my count, making up less than 10% of their fleet but still a sizable loss if they were to lose their contract/s. SouthLink owns a very small amount of their vehicles in their outer north and outer south contract areas, however they own about 80% of the buses in the Adelaide Hills contract area, basically all 32xx and 33xx Volgren units, except 3230.
User avatar
busrider
Moderator
 
Posts: 2272
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:35 pm
Location: Not in the Gutta
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 226 times
Favourite Vehicle: Maybe not my car...

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby marcnut1996 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:51 pm

Route 440 is currently timetabled to have its Rozelle terminus at Victoria Road intersection, and not the Terry Street/Wellington Street terminus. http://sydneybusroutes.com/ states that since October 2015, it does not beyond the Victoria Road intersection. However, in the street view (https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-33.8620872,151.1690955,3a,75y,22.4h,93.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAIc_hTjANYBHu2qwGq0pmQ!2e0!5s20161201T000000!7i13312!8i6656) for December 2016 and July 2017, there was a parked then-State Transit bus (Dec 2016 view had 440 desto) at Wellington St. From older state transit network maps, I know 440 used to go to Wellington Street. Has there ever been an official announcement that says 440 has been curtailed to Victoria Road intersection, or are the street views showing 440 layover at Wellington Street but it doesn't have a stop there?
Lives in Region 9, loves buses in Western Sydney.
marcnut1996
 
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:21 pm
Location: Sydney Region 9, formerly at Region 7, Singapore and Hong Kong
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 37 times
Favourite Vehicle: The Gemilang Buses in Region 6

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby Stu » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:54 pm

^ The 440 terminus was changed to Darling St in 2010 - Region 6 service review implementation 21/03/2010.

This provided an additional layover space on Wellington St which caters for services running late or have run not in service from L-Depot or from another terminus and have time to lay over.
Stu
 
Posts: 3803
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:37 pm
Has thanked: 125 times
Been thanked: 458 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby robert » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:54 pm

marcnut1996 wrote: http://sydneybusroutes.com/ states that since October 2015, it does not beyond the Victoria Road intersection.

Look at the previous entry for 440 in http://sydneybusroutes.com/ to see that it ran only to Victoria Rd "by 21.3.10". Stu tells us that change occurred ON 21.3.10.
For information about private & Government bus routes in Sydney, look at http://www.sydneybusroutes.com
robert
 
Posts: 1365
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:16 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby marcnut1996 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:23 am

I missed that line yesterday somehow. So Wellington Street is purely for layover purposes nowadays? Does TS still use this for layover?
Lives in Region 9, loves buses in Western Sydney.
marcnut1996
 
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:21 pm
Location: Sydney Region 9, formerly at Region 7, Singapore and Hong Kong
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 37 times
Favourite Vehicle: The Gemilang Buses in Region 6

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby kypros1992 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:54 am

Early 70s
Image
kypros1992
 
Posts: 834
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:14 am
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby mandonov » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:00 pm

Barely any difference to today.
mandonov
 
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 115 times
Been thanked: 316 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby tonyp » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:10 pm

mandonov wrote:Barely any difference to today.

And prior to that, one sees the tram routes ghosted in the background. What has changed is a dramatic loss of capacity over the years and a failure to recover the tram patronage that was lost.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7643
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 827 times
Been thanked: 949 times

Re: History of government bus services in the Inner West.

Postby Stu » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:59 pm

marcnut1996 wrote:I missed that line yesterday somehow. So Wellington Street is purely for layover purposes nowadays? Does TS still use this for layover?


Yes, layover only. TfNSW own the routes so no change to lay over requirements.
Stu
 
Posts: 3803
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:37 pm
Has thanked: 125 times
Been thanked: 458 times



  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Sydney / NSW

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot] and 16 guests