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Bondi Beach bus patronage

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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Stonesourscotty » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:38 pm

The 311 (Mainly Evenings) 324/5 and 355 also regularly have the vstms allocated to them
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Stu » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:06 am

The City to Bondi Beach corridor via BJI is unique and critical and receives much attention with additional services allocated accordingly. No other route receives this level of attention.

During very hot days (school holiday weekdays) on weekends and selected special events, additional buses are scheduled to operate between City St. James) / BJI / Bondi Beach / Nth Bondi.

Level A: 382.
Level B: X81.
Level C: 333, 380 & X81.
Level D: 333, 380 & X81 - many more X81's.

* Boxing Day has additional route 380 services commencing from Notts Ave, Bondi Beach outside of Bondi Icebergs Club in addition to the already additional level B route X81 services. The reason for commencing from Notts Ave is due the amount of waiting customers that are regularly passed by full buses or if a bus does happen to stop, then only a handful of customers can board the bus.

There are no additional route 380 services from Watsons Bay on Boxing Day due to no additional lay over space. There are additional X24 services although they do not lay over because they are all outbound AM and inbound PM. The only special event that permits additional route 380 services at Watsons Bay is during NYE as Military Rd alongside the shops at Watsons Bay becomes an extended bus lay over.

The 382 used to be somewhat of a boutique service in recent times as it only had 1 x inbound service every weekday AM and 6 x inbound services each Friday night. NYE was the most interesting of days/nights for the 382 as it would operate in both directions including to Dover Heights - a little bit like the old days pre-Better Buses East. The 382 service has increased in strength due to a slight reduction of route 380 services heading into the City.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:35 am

aussieboy wrote:
tonyp wrote:I'm wondering if they should now be reviewing the case for rail to Bondi Beach.


Absolutely. The new council has come out against light rail, with no consultation of residents. The previous Liberal council was in favour and did a lot of work on feasibility etc.

IMO the best place to put it would be down the laneways that run parallel to Bondi Rd (Waverley St - Dalley St - Ocean Lane - Avoca St

I was referring to an underground heavy-rail line actually. Light rail would be a good solution, but TfNSW's overdone "heavy-rail" approach to building it means that it can't be fitted along the Bondi Rd corridor without massive destruction of property.

It is quite feasible, however, to run it down Birriga Rd which in its original form is a 6-lane road purpose-designed for trams. This is from a report I left with Gladys when she originally became Transport Minister:

BondiLine.JPG


Since then, TfNSW's blundering, over-inflated approach to light rail has been revealed in its full horror and most of those routes on the map wouldn't be accepted within their narrow and densely-developed road corridors - but the Birriga Rd route would in terms of corridor width, particularly also with its one-way loop at the eastern end. No doubt they'd find some excuse like the "curves and grades of Birriga Rd are unsuitable for modern trams" or some such bs. Their form is predictable. However, this is the practical solution.

The only other issue there is that the cost-benefit case for the city-BJ section may not stack up well, which leaves the options of connecting to the city anyway or just having it as an isolated line from Waverley depot. Either way, this could replace a huge amount of buses.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Tonymercury » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:38 am

tonyp wrote:
The only other issue there is that the cost-benefit case for the city-BJ section may not stack up well, which leaves the options of connecting to the city anyway or just having it as an isolated line from Waverley depot. Either way, this could replace a huge amount of buses.


Convert the 400 as far as Rockdale Station, making sure that standards match for High Street and Anzac Parade.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:31 am

Tonymercury wrote:
Convert the 400 as far as Rockdale Station, making sure that standards match for High Street and Anzac Parade.

Like this you mean:

Image

And High St will have to be a funicular I'm afraid!
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Tonymercury » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:47 am

Only if you have TfNSW tattooed on you.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Frosty » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:05 pm

Light Rail to Bondi Beach to Bondi Jn would be better than current situation of where at most you can get 70 people on 12.5m bus. But light rail surely wouldn’t be able to the City via Oxford St. After Moore Park Rd Oxford St isn’t wide enough. The six lanes are very narrow there wouldn’t be any room for platform stops.

There should be a bus out there suitable for RHD market that is able to fit 90-100 people in a 12.5m bus & trialed it would work well for Bondi Beach Run & Inner West routes. I think in Australia it cultural thing 4 people per square metre standing is seen as unacceptable when we’re use to our personal space.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:10 am

Frosty wrote:Light Rail to Bondi Beach to Bondi Jn would be better than current situation of where at most you can get 70 people on 12.5m bus. But light rail surely wouldn’t be able to the City via Oxford St. After Moore Park Rd Oxford St isn’t wide enough. The six lanes are very narrow there wouldn’t be any room for platform stops.

There should be a bus out there suitable for RHD market that is able to fit 90-100 people in a 12.5m bus & trialed it would work well for Bondi Beach Run & Inner West routes. I think in Australia it cultural thing 4 people per square metre standing is seen as unacceptable when we’re use to our personal space.

A six-lane road is fine, especially considering that motorists have an alternative route along Moore Park Rd. There's also the option of putting the tram tracks kerbside along the southern side of Oxford St which would enable one platform to be incorporated in the footpath.

12 metre buses are classed to carry 90-100 people in Europe but they have to be practically be able to do so by having a stepless gangway right to the back and a door behind the rear axle. With a cave up the back it won't work. There isn't a low-floor chassis available in RHD that enables a door behind the rear axle. For now it has to be artics.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby gascoyne » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:26 am

From early 2019, the most urgent transport need in the Waverley area will be providing an alternative route for the overloaded south-eastern light rail system. Of course, T4NSW will never admit there's a problem but they might be favourably disposed to running trams along Oxford St.
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Re: STA Observations - January 2018

Postby Swift » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:37 pm

I was waiting on Campbell Pde for a 380 late this afternoonand a whole bunch of other services for Bondi Jcn came and went, such as the 381, 333 and 382 and all swallowed up hefty loads. The 333 took an age to soak a throng of punters through the front door only. It must have been horrendous in the days of cash payments. They all seemed to mainly use the front-most Opal reader instead of distributing themselves to use both. I was thinking how much better it would have been if the driver at least opened the centre doors of his Volgren bendy as well. It would have been perfectly safe, as they are quite close to the front. He would have been half way along Bondi Rd by the time he finally departed!
When a 380 did approach Stupid Transit had put on a VSTM and it was filled to the brim. Another wasn't due for 14 mins, so I walked all the way to the main North Bondi terminus from the south end of Bondi Beach and just made that next 380 and I had the pick of the seats. By the time we reached the last stop on Campbell Pde, we were full to the brim and the driver couldn't stop. The bus had to sail past many more stops along the way due to constant full crowding. The 380 needs bendies today!
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby mandonov » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:59 pm

So TfNSW's Open Data platform has stats on bus loads by route, individual bus services and down to bus stops, in it's Bus Occupancy dataset from Aug 2016 - Jan 2017: https://opendata.transport.nsw.gov.au/d ... 6-jan-2017 (note you need to register and log in to access the data, but it's free to do so)

The way that the bus load is presented, while not being so detailed as to be a privacy concern, is the same way that the apps show bus load, with just three levels: Many Seats Available, Few Seats Available, Standing Room Only.

Now the excel spreadsheet I downloaded for August 8 was insane to comb through as it includes every single route, with multiple runs, in the whole Metro and Outer Metro contract area, so good luck if you peruse the document with a full weeks worth of data. So I isolated the info from August 8 2016 for routes 333, 380, 381, 382 and created a somewhat easier to read spreadsheet for those interested in this granular info:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jetcxj1s02wtk ... .xlsx?dl=0

One example of what you can find in the data is that the 07:10 333 service from Vaucluse was standing room only from Notts Ave before going back down to few seats available at BJI Stand Q, then back to standing room only by Paddington Public School until it empties out at Museum. That service was on time in Dover Heights, 2 minutes late at Bondi Beach, 8 Minutes late at BJI, and by the time it got to the city it was 11 minutes behind schedule.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:17 am

mandonov wrote: That service was on time in Dover Heights, 2 minutes late at Bondi Beach, 8 Minutes late at BJI, and by the time it got to the city it was 11 minutes behind schedule.

I think this is not exactly unrelated to this observation just made by Swift above:

Swift wrote:The 333 took an age to soak a throng of punters through the front door only. It must have been horrendous in the days of cash payments.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby aussieboy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:18 pm

Caught a bus from North Bondi to Bondi Junction at 8pm this evening. What a complete and utter disaster, I was ashamed to be a Sydneysider.

Buses were only running every 10mins (20min frequencies on both 380 and 333).

Crowds at every stop after North Bondi (between 20-50 people). Families, backpackers and locals all jousting for a spot on the bus - no orderly queues and no priority for prams or kids. Buses full by Hall St.

I don't get why NSW Transport doesn't just put on more buses. Even with Sunday penalty rates, surely a 60 person bus generates more revenue than costs (about $215 for the trip from beach to station less concessions).
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Linto63 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:42 pm

Waverley depot usually operate extra services on summer Sundays, guess being such a hot day, maybe the crowds lingered longer than usual. But agree not a great look, shouldn't have been too hard to rustle up a couple of extras at that time of night with many buses arriving on shed at about that time.

Probably little extra revenue to be made, most reaching the $2.60 cap on their way in, but that's not really the point.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Stu » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:23 pm

Additional route 333 services are operated by R-Depot.
Additional route 380, X81 & 382 services are operated by both R-Depot & W-Depot.

W-Depot sometimes provide 2 x spare ('route 380') shifts/buses, the driver is on standby at BJI and simply operates various routes under the direction of the officer in charge of supervision st BJI.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:21 am

I journeyed up to Sydney and had two goes at Bondi Beach to observe goings on.I observed at the Campbell Parade /Hall Street stop.Friday and Saturday evenings.
There,are in my opinion a number of issues.
Firstly the use of the Bustech VSTM buses,which are way too undersized in capacity for the Bondi corridor.STA allocated these buses to 380,314(afternoon/evening shifts),328,360,379,381.I even observed one at lunchtime today at Campsie working a Burwood bound 400.The same allocation of VSTM's was operating on Friday and Saturday evenings.So this would seem to be a deliberate choice at Waverley to do this.i caught a VSTM from Circ Quay to North Bondi on Friday evening.Heavy standing load from Museum to Bondi Beach.
On Saturday evening around 9pm.Over 100 pax waiting at Hall Street.12 minute gap between services.What fronts first? A VSTM packed to the gunwales on 380 from the first 3 stops.Sails straight past.3 minutes later an artic on 333 appears.Takes around 90 pax,but this takes 4 minutes to load with pax going via the front door.The lady driver repeatedly asked the pax not to push and shove.Left about 15 pax behind.The next 380 didn't front so the next bus was a 333 which took the waiting throng of about 70 pax.This process was repeated.The VSTM's just don't have the capacity to cope with the loadings.S
The other major issue is the inconsistency in the headways.12 minutes gaps then 5 minute gaps,then 2 buses at once.The headways are all over the shop,which is why the big crowds of waiting pax build up,only to be greeted by a VSTM.Even at 9 and 10pm there were still thousands of people at Bondi Beach.
It seems to me that you only need one route on the Circ Quay-BJI-North Bondi corridor.Call it route 380.The five different routes(variations),all operating on different frequencies produce a very inconsistent timetable which is confusing for the punters.That produces bunching of 2-3-4 buses in a hit.I saw two 380 operating outbound from BJI ,after 10pm.The first -a VSTM was packed to the gunwales.The second-a standard rigid was empty.Coupled with the lack of capacity of the buses,and the variations in bus sizes produces the constant large groups of waiting pax.You need the entire service operated by artics with only one route over the corridor from Circ Quay to North Bondi..Consistent high capacity bus size.You need all door boarding .This will reduce the dwell times by over half.You should be able to load the 90 pax in 2 minutes flat.That will assist hugely in keeping the buses on time,and produce some run time savings.
The operation of only one route will allow the introduction of consistent headways over the day.I reckon you need around 3 minute headways in peak and on summer weekends and 4 minute headways off peak with every second bus operating through from BJI to the City.That should spread the load across the route ,allowing a more even service,with no more empty buses.Paying attention to run times and reducing the excessive layover times at each end of the route will require a lower PVR.
By having only one route would allow the more effective marketing of the service to the tourism market.Paint the buses a different livery ,with appropriate signage.
I would disconnect the section from North Bondi to Dover Heights/Watsons Bay and replace that with a new service from BJI via Old South Head Road to the top end of Bondi Beach then to Dover Heights and Watsons Bay.20 minute off peak/10 minute peak hour service.That would remove the high capacity buses from the quiet Dover Heights section,keeping them confined to where they really are needed.That might actually produce a more attractive for the Dover Heights pax,without being constantly in packed buses.
I would delete the 381 and replace that with a small extension of the 360 to Bondi Road.
You could operate that base service for the 380 with 30 buses,plus about 8 buses for the BJI-Dover Heights-Watsons Bay service.You would also need 1-2 hot spot spare buses to work as required to cobver gaps and pax build ups.
Thats my opinion of what needs to happen to make this incredibly important corridor function.At the moment it really is a mess as several members have commented.
I also did Coogee Beach.Same issues there.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Swift » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:39 am

I hope the actors, artists and various snobs that thought a train service was a terrible idea can see the workable alternative we have now.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:59 am

burrumbus wrote:I journeyed up to Sydney and had two goes at Bondi Beach to observe goings on.I observed at the Campbell Parade /Hall Street stop.Friday and Saturday evenings.
There,are in my opinion a number of issues.....

The situation is between a rock and a hard place. The trams have gone, huge mistake, and obstacles have been placed in the way of returning them - though the Birriga Rd route hasn't been investigated seriously, but TfNSW/RMS will find a way to nix that. A rail line is considered not to have the necessary cost-benefit. The bus operator (with the additional overburden of the transport agency) is a monumental failure in the field of mass transit.

Digging down deeper on the latter, the RTBU/TfNSW ban on doors - indeed general reluctance to have them at all - completely stuffs any prospect of effective operation. Then some sort of industry-wide brainfart has enabled a bus that's designed for smaller Queensland regional cities to spread like a biblical plague across the eastern seaboard as the chosen engineering solution to high-capacity work in major cities. Massive incompetence and I don't see any way out of it.

Then on top of it, there are quibbles about the cost of it and then wondering why there's so much traffic congestion as people prefer to drive.

Should be able to fully-load an artic through three doors in not much more than a minute - four doors to eliminate the cave at the back would bring it under easily, but this is hypothetical because it's banned. The fact that 90 got on but 15 were left behind in that example means that the bus wasn't fully-loaded to capacity (110), basically because after a point the dwell becomes so long and the driver has to decide that it's time to give up and move off. I've seen this happen on the Gong Shuttle. If people get left behind and have to wait 10 minutes to the next (sometimes with no guarantee that they'll get on that either), then it causes them to think that next time they must remember to get out the car keys and drive themselves.

This is nothing new. I gave up on the government buses from the 1980s and walked to town (from inner west and inner east), it was that bad then. Then the trains slowed down and went down the gurgler too and I have to admit that, as I had no desire to spend half my daily life travelling, I joined the throngs driving to and parking in those inner suburbs where the resident parking restrictions hadn't spread so far. (The fast V set services were my last toehold on Sydney public transport, then they turned turtle!) If I did this as a public transport enthusiast, how do you think the average punter with no love for crowded, slow buses and trains is going to respond? Then there's the conspiracy theory that it was all deliberate government policy because roads are the way to go.

I haven't heard much from those drivers who were fiercely arguing for front-door-only loading on this forum a few years ago. Still there chaps? :wink:
Last edited by tonyp on Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:00 am

Swift wrote:I hope the actors, artists and various snobs that thought a train service was a terrible idea can see the workable alternative we have now.

They don't care, they drive.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:29 am

Tony,I suspect the reason the lady driver didn't load the bus to capacity at Hall Avenue was to have some capacity for the last Campbell Parade stop,then Bondi Road.There is turnover from Bondi Beach down Bondi Beach.From the evidence my estimate of 3 out of 10 pax is pretty close to the mark.
The service there simply fails badly,But I saw several examples throughout the STA area.Coogee and Randwick having the same issues.
As In transit said the problems can be sorted out relatively easily.But,like you STA ,hamstrung by old operating practices and the union are simply incapable of making those changes.As I've said before the lack of capacity and productivity of bus and drivers is one of the biggest reasons(although not stated publicly)why STA will lose region 6.
Sydney desparately needs something better from the bus industry.
By the way most region 6 buses noted were very simply filthy outside.Seems they have given up trying to present the buses at least a bit.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:59 am

burrumbus wrote:Tony,I suspect the reason the lady driver didn't load the bus to capacity at Hall Avenue was to have some capacity for the last Campbell Parade stop,then Bondi Road.There is turnover from Bondi Beach down Bondi Beach.From the evidence my estimate of 3 out of 10 pax is pretty close to the mark.
The service there simply fails badly,But I saw several examples throughout the STA area.Coogee and Randwick having the same issues.
As In transit said the problems can be sorted out relatively easily.But,like you STA ,hamstrung by old operating practices and the union are simply incapable of making those changes.As I've said before the lack of capacity and productivity of bus and drivers is one of the biggest reasons(although not stated publicly)why STA will lose region 6.
Sydney desparately needs something better from the bus industry.
By the way most region 6 buses noted were very simply filthy outside.Seems they have given up trying to present the buses at least a bit.

It's a dilemma. My first reaction to these issues is that STA has to go, but the question that follows through is "to be replaced by what"? There's still the same poor agency and the agency is the key factor in how it all works, as WA demonstrates. One might hope at least that some of the foreign contractor-operators, drawing on their European experience, might see the issues more clearly and pressure TfNSW to help them act on them with more effective solutions. It's a case of living in hope. The bigger picture is that the local bus industry is simply failing to deliver through its lack of knowledge and sophistication.

CSELR should be able to be readily extended to Coogee Beach and Maroubra Beach, subject to the realities at TfNSW. That would solve those issues at least. My preferred practical solution for Bondi Beach is to build the rail as the direct express and supplement it with buses to fill in the details along the coorridor.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Frosty » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:32 am

tonyp wrote:
Swift wrote:I hope the actors, artists and various snobs that thought a train service was a terrible idea can see the workable alternative we have now.

They don't care, they drive.


Don’t worry they’ve also got the choice of Uber now. I reckon there would be a bit of surge pricing last night with Uber.

The lady driver who said not to push & shove I reckon pushing & shoving is faster & gets more people on.

But surely with STA wouldn’t of they had extra buses out & about since I saw at least 10 at Moore Park for the cricket shuttles. Coogee & Maroubra tends to be more local people. I’ve seen with full buses out of Coogee & Maroubra drivers manage to squeeze a few more on by letting a few people get on through the back door. I have feeling W prefers VSTM probably more reliable, better fuel consumption & drivers prefer it.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby gld59 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:44 am

Frosty wrote:I have feeling W prefers VSTM probably more reliable, better fuel consumption & drivers prefer it.

They're the only diesel rigids at W, so you may be right about preferences. (Must have been fun driving and refilling the gassies yesterday! :roll: )

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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Nugget » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:04 am

Over the weekend the Sydney test may also have had an impact on the buses available to R and W.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby J_Busworth » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:20 pm

I completely agree with those saying that Bondi Beach should be serviced by one route with a constant better than every 5 minutes schedule operated solely by bendies. Another issue this would solve is the way the buses load at BJI. I've been noticing a large number of people waiting for the 333, which often arrives already full from the city, whilst 381/X81 load at a different stand and fail to even get half full. I also think that whatever dispatcher puts VSTMs on a 380 (or 400 for that matter) should be sacked for have intensive retraining about putting the right bus on the right route, VSTMs for 326-328, 360-362 and 386-387 only, with mostly bendies to Bondi Beach.

As mentioned Coogee also faces similar problems but that could easily be solved by extending the light rail down Coogee Bay Road or even more bendies on the 373. Of course I think the best solution is to extend the heavy rail right down to the Beach, but that will never happen.
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