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Peak Hour times to be extended?

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby PaulSEO » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:16 am

Does this mean what it appears to mean - that "peak" hours will be 6-10, 15-19?

http://restoreinnerwestline.org.au/fare ... timetable/

Has this been confirmed or announced anywhere? If it is true, then it is not something that TfNSW or Sydney Trains, or especially the Minister would want to boast about. It is a revenue grab and nothing to do with controlling or managing capacity.
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Re: Paek Hour times to be extended?

Postby Fleet Lists » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:40 am

The link shows a sign at Leumeah which indicates that new peak hour times are 6.00 to 10.00 and 15.00 to 19.00 from 26th November.

As far as I know there has been no advice issue about this.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby sunnyyan » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:00 am

I think what it is saying is that the changed peak stopping patterns are in place 6-10 and 15-19
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby boronia » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:06 am

Well, they are not going to boast about changes to Opal fares while all the other complaints are coming in. Might be one of those things that happens by stealth.

"yes, we did announce that peak hours were changing..., but there is now a 15 minute service to Penrith on weekends."
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby simonl » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:42 am

Would that cause a problem with IPART maximum fares, or will they argue that average fares haven't risen by the full amount and there is flexibility in that margin to extend the peak?

I think the latter actually.

They would need to buy more trains to extend peak hour services temporally so it is a rise in the costs.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby boronia » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:56 pm

Presumably the same "logic" that was rolled out when the free travel after 8 was discontinued, "we didn't increase the fares" (but you will just pay more for the same amount of travel)
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Aurora » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:02 pm

Huh? Nothing about fares anywhere. Some people just love to find ways to whinge.

It should be noted these hours have been the timetabled peak hours since the 2013 timetable.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby swtt » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:11 pm

Aurora wrote:Huh? Nothing about fares anywhere. Some people just love to find ways to whinge.

It should be noted these hours have been the timetabled peak hours since the 2013 timetable.


Whilst I agree with what you've mentioned, it can lead to confusion.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Liamena » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:26 pm

The Government keeps suggesting that people travel outside "peak hours". The more peak hours get extended, the less practical that becomes.

I don't think that the rolling stock exists to run services at peak hour frequencies, for longer. So it looks like a fare grab to me.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:57 pm

No, I think Auroroa has already explained the situation above.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby mandonov » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:47 pm

Why would extending the operational peak be a rolling stock problem? Wouldn't keeping the same frequency for an extra hour require the same amount of trains?
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:53 pm

One would thinks so but in fact it is not an extension of peak time as posted earlier - the operational peak hour as opposed to the fare peak hour, has been defined as such since the introduction of the 2013 timetables.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby boronia » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:57 pm

They obviously have the rolling stock for this new timetable with its increased "peak hour", IF they have actually increased services in the new shoulder hours.

Are there more trains in the new 0600-0700 and 0900-1000 t/t than previously (and similarly in the PM), without a reduction in the core hours?
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Liamena » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:56 pm

mandonov wrote:Why would extending the operational peak be a rolling stock problem? Wouldn't keeping the same frequency for an extra hour require the same amount of trains?


I could explain it to you, but not in the mood to write a couple of pages right now.

You need a certain number of trains running all the time up and down the line to provide the standard 15 minute spacing, or whatever it is on a particular line.

You can then run an extra 4 trains in peak hour, which basically have time to make one trip, and then don't get used for the rest of the day.

If you extend that peak period to 2 hours, then you need an extra 8 trains, because the first 4 trains can't get back to the start of the line fast enough to make another peak run ( this is assuming that the peak direction is in one direction ).

If you extend the peak period to 3 hours, then you would next an extra 12 trains.

I do not think there are enough trains to run an extra 12 trains on all of the main lines.

Extending the peak level of service beyond 4 hours is not too bad though, because the extra trains which you ran in the first hour can probably get back to run again in the fourth hour.

The period during which extra trains run varies from line to line. On the Bankstown line and the Northern Line, it was only an hour, the last time I looked. On other lines, longer.

On the North Shore line, frequency drops very sharply from Wynyard at 6 PM and the trains around 6.30 from Wynyard are often the most crowded of the day. Sydney trains seems to be still living in the 50's when office workers all downed tools at 5 PM sharp. If you want to extend peak fares, making off-peak fares almost unusable, then there should be more trains.


And, if some of you are claiming this has nothing to do with fares at all, then what does changing the peak period mean, anyway ? Nothing at all ?
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Aurora » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:18 am

Liamena wrote:And, if some of you are claiming this has nothing to do with fares at all, then what does changing the peak period mean, anyway ? Nothing at all ?

That passengers are receiving a peak service longer, which they are.

PS: As I said earlier, there is no change here though.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Liamena » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:44 pm

So if you look at the new timetable, at Lindfield, the first train is 4.43 and then 5.13 and then at 15 minute intervals at 13,28,43 and 58 minutes past the hour, and this pattern doesn't change until 7:55, when there is a train at 7:55 and then 7:58, and then continuing with 12 and 3 minute spacing until 8:43, and then back to 15 minute spacing after that.

So the extra train in that scheme are the 4 trains starting from Gordon, which go to Lindfield 3 minutes before the limited stops train from Hornsby. There is also a 5th train from Gordon, which runs 3 minutes after a Hornsby train at Lindfield at 9:01.

So if you go back and look at the current timetable.... it's exactly the same! Trains at 13,28,43 and 58 minutes past the hour, and then from 7:43 gaps of 12 and 3 minutes until 8:43, and then 15 minutes. Except in the current timetable, there is a train which originates from Lindfield at 9:10, which has been abolished entirely.


If you look at Turramurra, on the other hand, the trains in the current timetable are better spaced than Lindfield, and between 7:04 and 8:49 there are no scheduled gaps between trains exceeding 10 minutes in the current timetable.

In the new timetable, at Turramurra, you will be able to catch a train with a gap between services less than or equal to ten minutes between 6:49 and 8:49, so I guess than is a slight expansion of the period of peak-hour capacity there.

If you look at the PM peak period, and look at the intervals between trains arriving at Pymble, after the 4:08 PM service in the current timetable, then the intervals are 9 minutes, 6 minutes, then every 15 minutes until 7:38 PM, and then 9 minutes, and then every 15 minutes until midnight. So the best services to Pymble leave Town Hall just after 3:30.

The new timetable seems to be identical.


An alternative way to look at it, would be to see what period the pattern of skipping 3 stations between Chatswood and Hornsby occurs.

In the current timetable, the first train which does this is the 3:50 PM at Gordon ( 3:20 at Town Hall ), and the last train which does this is the 7:35 PM at Gordon. Before and after this, all of the trains are all-stops between Central and Hornsby or Berowra. Operating this way results in no gaps more than 9 minutes in services which stop at Gordon and Turramurra, but less good for other stations between Chatswood and Hornsby, in most cases 15 minutes which is the same as off-peak or the weekend. That's a period of a little less than 4 hours of peak hour pattern.

In the new timetable, the first train which does this is the 3:50 PM at Gordon, and the last train which does this is the 7:35 PM at Gordon. That's a period of a little less than 4 hours. Actually it seems to be identical.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:35 pm

Nobody has denied that - there are NO changes in this respect - the sign which started all this is just confusing in that as far as Sydney Trains are concerned there are NO changes to the operational peak hour times as shown there which are different to the peak hour fare times.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby swtt » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:11 pm

The "current" T1 timetables (w.e.f. 26/11/2017) won't last for more than 12 months anyway.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:36 pm

What does that have to do with it?
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby swtt » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:49 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:What does that have to do with it?


I was referring to Liamena's post where Lindfield has a 12/3 frequency over the 15 min period, and that this arrangement would probably not last for long, irrespective of whether the AM peak is extended or not.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby Liamena » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:32 pm

Well the point of my post was that currently, the period of extra services during the AM peak period ( over an above the standard 15 minute frequency ) , runs for less than an hour at Lindfield, and less than 2 hours at Turramurra.

And this doesn't change materially in the new timetable.

And there exists no "shoulder" period.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby simonl » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:28 pm

mandonov wrote:Why would extending the operational peak be a rolling stock problem? Wouldn't keeping the same frequency for an extra hour require the same amount of trains?

My understanding is that the peak hour services cannot be maintained because they require trains to be pre-positioned at the far reaches of the network in the early morning, or near the city for the PM peak. I'm open to more detailed comments from anyone who knows more. As Liamena has pointed out, I guess.
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Re: Peak Hour times to be extended?

Postby swtt » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:47 am

Back to the original question which the SMH seems to have picked up on:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-sydney-co ... zmlmk.html

The new timetable will not result in changes to the peak-hour periods for Sydney trains of 7am to 9am and 4pm to 6.30pm on weekdays. Commuters gain a 30 per cent discount on full-price Opal fares for travelling outside the peak-hour periods.
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