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NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Fri May 19, 2017 8:17 pm

Frosty wrote:What would be interesting once Sydney Metro is built how convenient would be an Out of Station Interchange be between Town Hall and Pitt St station.

I think that they're trying to discourage interchange between the two stations because of the perceived potential congestion at Town Hall. Hence the lack of a direct underground pedestrian connection. I still think that it's a poor option though, when previous proposals had a direct interchange connection. Congestion at Town Hall will actually be reduced because of the metro line.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Fri May 19, 2017 8:49 pm

What would be the point though with Martin Place station and Central Walk? They'd rather reduce the congestion absolutely rather than have people using Town Hall at all.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby moa999 » Fri May 19, 2017 9:13 pm

I thought at least one of the plans suggested there might be a link between the Pitt St Metro and Galleries Victoria, which would provide an underground albeit not paid connection between Pitt St and Martin Place Station

(And probably more links in the future if the CoS Town Hall Square ever gets beyond a drawing)
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Fri May 19, 2017 10:59 pm

mandonov wrote:What would be the point though with Martin Place station and Central Walk? They'd rather reduce the congestion absolutely rather than have people using Town Hall at all.

That may be so, but it's still not a convenient option for commuters by discouraging interchange when the stations are so close.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Sat May 20, 2017 6:27 am

Transtopic wrote:That may be so, but it's still not a convenient option for commuters by discouraging interchange when the stations are so close.


And interchange will occur, whether its planned or not.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Sat May 20, 2017 10:46 am

There isn't any interchange that I can think of that would make sense to do at Town Hall/Pitt Street that isn't more convenient at either Central or Martin Place.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby lunchbox » Sat May 20, 2017 10:49 am

Sydney Metro is currently calling for your ideas on how to best provide the temporary bus services while the Bankstown Line is converted to Metro.
I'm sure somebody will post the appropriate internet link.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Fleet Lists » Sat May 20, 2017 1:25 pm

I would if I could find it. What page is it on?
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Transtopic » Sat May 20, 2017 7:57 pm

grog wrote:There isn't any interchange that I can think of that would make sense to do at Town Hall/Pitt Street that isn't more convenient at either Central or Martin Place.

Eastern Suburbs to North Sydney or St Leonards perhaps, although admittedly would probably be minimal. Still would make sense though to have underground pedestrian links connecting with retail and public spaces between the two stations.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Sun May 21, 2017 4:25 pm

grog wrote:There isn't any interchange that I can think of that would make sense to do at Town Hall/Pitt Street that isn't more convenient at either Central or Martin Place.

There isn't any new interchange although the many of existing interchanges which make sense to do at Town Hall will still make sense to be done there. Most notably Sector 1 to/from the Shore but a sizable portion of those would go over to new harbour crossing.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Sun May 21, 2017 8:28 pm

Sorry, I meant there are no interchanges that make sense as an out of station interchange between Pitt St and Town Hall, even if there was an underground link.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby Tonymercury » Mon May 22, 2017 5:37 am

Repetition from above -

And interchange will occur, whether it is planned or not.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby grog » Mon May 22, 2017 7:05 am

That may be true, but the numbers will be tiny because it will be way less convenient than another interchange option for every combination of lines.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby swtt » Mon May 22, 2017 7:43 am

Re: Bankstown bustitution -- provide a base service to and from stations north and south of the Bankstown line station to the Inner West and East Hills lines.

E.g. Lidcombe to Bankstown to Padstow.

Burwood to Campsie to Bexley Nth

Then some peak hour expresses to and from further away, e.g. Sydenham or Wolli Creek

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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby jpp42 » Mon May 22, 2017 2:00 pm

Connection of the stations even via unpaid concourses is a worthy goal as well, as it reduces pedestrians conflicting with vehicle traffic - this has a safety benefit as well as slightly improves vehicle traffic throughput, especially for turns. For example, if the Pitt St station is connected to The Galleries underground, there would then be continuous underground connections to the QVB, Town Hall Square arcade, The Pavillion building (HSBC building), etc. This shouldn't be overlooked even if there is no direct to interchange between the two stations.

Also, with Opal it's easy to say that an unpaid concourse connection allows easy interchange, for those that will happen, like the Eastern Suburbs to Crows Nest or similar.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby simonl » Mon May 22, 2017 4:45 pm

It's interesting how since Opal they aren't providing unpaid area thoroughfares, e.g. at Wynyard. I think I've seen something similar at Central.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby mandonov » Mon May 22, 2017 7:42 pm

Wynyard has an unpaid thoroughfare. It's on the northern side of the expanded paid concourse, between Wynyard Walk and the Met Centre exits.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby rogf24 » Mon May 22, 2017 9:43 pm

jpp42 wrote:Also, with Opal it's easy to say that an unpaid concourse connection allows easy interchange, for those that will happen, like the Eastern Suburbs to Crows Nest or similar.


I don't know about you but I interpreted this comment as one about the connection at Martin Place and that there will be an unpaid concourse to change. There will be a paid connection for people travelling Eastern Suburbs <--> Crows Nest at Martin Place.
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby rogf24 » Mon May 29, 2017 1:00 pm

There's an interesting short discussion on this months rail observations page on the development in the corridor. I'll leave a link here for reference. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84276&start=50
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Postby gascoyne » Tue May 30, 2017 9:20 pm

Grog wrote:
Sydney Metro rolling stock is to operate at 100km/h (130km/h would be much better, but this is still better than 80-90km/h).


The aim was to do 36 km from Cudgegong Rd to Chatswood in 36 minutes and have the passengers on a North Shore train zero minutes later.
That requires 130 km/h on the skyrail and 100 km/h in tunnels. I simply don't believe they'll achieve that, especially in the curve from Lane Cove River to Chatswood. 40+ minutes is more likely, plus waiting time at Chatswood.
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Postby boronia » Tue May 30, 2017 9:54 pm

Liamena wrote:It's a bit unrealistic for customers from Green Square to be expecting to get a seat in the AM peak, when they board at the last stop of a train which has been to 19 stops before they get to Green Square. But they should be able to get on. The average peak loading during the peak on that line for trains arriving at Central is only 130%. It is probably only the worst-case service running at 158% that they cannot get on.

But that extra 30% will congregate in the vestibule area and effectively block any more pax from boarding. Meanwhile, there are probably some empty seats in the saloons.
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Postby Tonymercury » Wed May 31, 2017 6:20 am

gascoyne wrote: 40+ minutes is more likely, plus waiting time at Chatswood.


22 trains, minus one spare, aren't enough for that.
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Postby tonyp » Wed May 31, 2017 7:10 am

gascoyne wrote:The aim was to do 36 km from Cudgegong Rd to Chatswood in 36 minutes and have the passengers on a North Shore train zero minutes later.
That requires 130 km/h on the skyrail and 100 km/h in tunnels. I simply don't believe they'll achieve that, especially in the curve from Lane Cove River to Chatswood. 40+ minutes is more likely, plus waiting time at Chatswood.

Perhaps take a comparative cue from the present Richmond line service where a look at the timetable tells me that a train takes 47 minutes to cover the 35 km from Richmond to Westmead with 11 intermediate stops. Cudgegong Rd to Chatswood is also about 35 km (you say 36) with 11 intermediate stops. It's obviously going to be faster in a metro train than 47 minutes. Sydney Metro's present travel calculator says 37 minutes, that's an average of about 60 km/h which seems perfectly feasible to me. Don't forget the metro trains will have shorter dwells and faster acceleration and deceleration than the suburban trains, thus will be able to maintain higher average speeds, which is the critical point.

I reckon the real estate hotspot to be in Sydney (if you can stand the heat in summer!) is in Schofields in all that new housing between Schofields station and Cudgeging Rd station (the lines should actually connect and will eventually). You have a choice. Both lines will get you to Central in 51/52 minutes. The metro will have 17 intermediate stops connecting you with significant employment/education/activity centres at Norwest, Castle Hill, North Ryde, Chatswood, Crows Nest/North Sydney and the Sydney CBD. The suburban train has 9 intermediate stops and Westmead/Parramatta is really the only major centre served along the way (some minor ones too), then a few more minutes/couple of more stops into the Sydney CBD proper.

The total metro route length Cudgegong Rd to Central will be about 45 km; Schofields via the Richmond line a couple of kms less. So basically both modes will have the same journey time for the same distance, but the metro has 8 more stops to make. Now do you start to get a picture of what a performer the metro will be compared to a suburban train service, even over long distances? Those lucky Schofields people will also definitely get a seat on the metro on the inward and would probably not have to wait long for one (if they didn't already get one) on the outwards. I see some certain arguments dissolving like fairy floss.
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Re: SMH | Green Square is Sydney's 'public transport disaste

Postby Transtopic » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:14 pm

tonyp wrote:The total metro route length Cudgegong Rd to Central will be about 45 km; Schofields via the Richmond line a couple of kms less. So basically both modes will have the same journey time for the same distance, but the metro has 8 more stops to make. Now do you start to get a picture of what a performer the metro will be compared to a suburban train service, even over long distances? Those lucky Schofields people will also definitely get a seat on the metro on the inward and would probably not have to wait long for one (if they didn't already get one) on the outwards. I see some certain arguments dissolving like fairy floss.

Well if that's the case tonyp, then I'd take the suburban train for a more comfortable ride. There is one benefit though for the metro. With its sharper acceleration and deceleration as well as longitudinal seating it will give your glutes a good workout, especially with double the number of stations. :lol:
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Re: NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

Postby tonyp » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:32 pm

I was wondering why my hips were feeling so much stronger after all that train riding in Perth! :lol:

Be thankful the seats aren't stainless steel, which I experienced in Hong Kong. When the train stops you slide down to the front and when it accelerates you slide down to the back!

It's a pity they're not connecting the metro to Schofields first off because that would give that whole Hawkesbury region the choice of access to two major sets of urban centres on two separate corridors on the way to Sydney. However they're working under a decade-old planning approval that I understand it was too difficult to vary without putting the project back.

The penny that should drop if the Richmond line train takes the same time to Sydney as the metro, even though it's semi-express, is that the Sydney suburban trains are far too slow.
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