FORD OR HOLDEN???

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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Swift » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:01 pm

scott wrote:Had a bit of a laugh this morning when my mate and I pulled up at the local Ford dealership and parked my VY Commodore outside the showroom (he needed to get some parts for his newly acquired from the auction BA MKII to get it ready for an roadworthy and I gave him a lift), we got out of the car and we were quite friendly accosted by a couple of sales people asking us we we interesting in checking out some new 2012 plated FG MKII's they now have in stock, we politely said thanks but no thanks and wandered off to spare parts. I wonder if they are trying to revive Ford's flagging Falcon sales by approaching every Commodore driver who pulls up in their dealership. They said they could give me an amazing trade in on the VY.

Next time if I want to call in on the local Ford dealer, I will catch the bus.

Why does Ford refuse to advertise the car on television? This beautiful car needs more exposure.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby scott » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:29 pm

That is the question I am asking myself, the FG MKII is a beautiful looking machine, especially in Winter "stock" White. The ECOLPI system is a beautiful piece of engineering, we have one FG MK1 ECOLPI at work in the pool and another FG MKII version is on the way, if not being pre delivered. It is awesome and the it has a heap of torque. It has a unique priming/starting system that takes a bit of getting used to, but it is quite clever, basically the computer wakes up when you unlock the door and when you pull the door handle, the fuel pump starts priming, once I have adjusted the seat and steering wheel to my liking, just flick the key to start and let it go, the computer takes care of the rest and it starts once it is primed up and ready.

Get rid of this crap advertising thier Euro models and start flogging their bread and butter.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Daniel » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:10 am

Swift wrote:Why does Ford refuse to advertise the car on television? This beautiful car needs more exposure.

Basically because no private buyers want them. The general public has moved beyond bulky, bloated, dated and expensive sedans and no amount of advertising will turn around its eventual death.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Albatross » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:19 am

If that's the case then why SUV's have become so popular? They truly are "bulky bloated dated and expensive"
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Daniel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:42 am

SUVs fit three of those, but not dated. The sedan is dated. The SUV then adds practical and if you choose Japanese you get reliability.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby eddy » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:08 am

One of my daughters has four children and they needed a landcruiser or a people mover because most cars are only five seaters. She now is one of those dreaded mums who takes her little ones to school in the landcruiser.
I Have designed a cheap, ugly but practical 6 seater and maybe if Ford or Holden could build them suitable for the road at $10,000 each they may be acceptable for some local and overseas buyers.
Here it is http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... revstart=0
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Daniel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:07 am

Yeah right....... !! Come on eddy.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby eddy » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:15 am

Daniel
My 18 year old grandaughter begged me not to upload that as she said it made her feel sick just to look at it and i would lose any credibility i may have but i am a stubborn bugger and put it up anyway because i wanted to gauge general reaction.
Maybe speed limited with no airbags and without all the bells and whistles such as no aircon and windows that just were pushed up and down by hand, like my old 1952 Vauxhaul Velox, and a pressed out floor pan with rear suspension just bolted to it they could be made for $10,000 there maybe some poor people that have a big family or surfboards etc. that would buy it in sufficient numbers to have some sort of car industry because we cannot compete with normal stuff.
Thanks for your feedback anyway I think you will be in the vast majority.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Andrew » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:25 pm

Stick an air powered engine in it and you're on a winner... forget about all that safety stuff.... but you'd won't be able to sell any in some states without the safety bizzo!
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby eddy » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:24 pm

Andrew
Regarding safety stuff I see mothers with one child in a car seat on the left getting the 5 year old out the right hand side of the car with door wide open and cars whizzing by or the other way around so the three sliding doors would eliminate that problem.
Being front wheel drive they would be safer than a cab over people mover but without the difficult long wheelbase.
In America they are looking at cutting back on some of their over the top rules to restore productivity and perhaps if the time comes when there is a choice between sensible rules or closing the car plants the states may get real.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby PoweredByCNG » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:18 pm

"Australia's Best Cars" recently awarded the Ford FG Falcon EcoLPi as the "Best Large Car Under $60,000 of 2011".

http://www.australiasbestcars.com.au/2011/large_under.htm

With a 715km full to empty range (assuming mixed urban/highway driving, 12.3L / 100km), the world-class 6-speed ZF automatic gearbox and more power / torque than the petrol variant (198kW @ 5000rpm / 409Nm @ 3250rpm vs. 195kW @ 6000rpm / 391Nm @ 3250rpm), there's now no good reason to pick the petrol Falcon over the LPG Falcon for 95% of Australians. Prices for the FG MkII have dropped in comparison to the FG MkI too.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Daniel » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:22 pm

Ah no eddy, doesn't work that way. Everyone in that car would die in the smallest of accidents, it looks about as flimsy as a cardboard box, with zero rollover protection. No car maker would ever want to build it because they would ruin their reputation and no government would ever allow it because it would probably be the most unsafe car on the roads for some decades. But, don't let me stop you from getting it built to drive around on private property...
By the way, I strongly agree with your granddaughter! Besides, if you want to unload your unnecessarily large brood safely, just buy a people mover (Kia Carnival, Toyota Tarago etc) and only let them out of the large kerbside sliding door, doesn't that achieve the same outcome without pushing a dangerous car onto the market??
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby eddy » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:40 pm

PoweredByCNG
A lot of young families would love to buy a $60,000 car but they have not got that sort of money also you still have the same problem that it will not take 6 people and the mother still has to get one child out the right hand side of the car lastly there are plenty of cars in that price range to choose from.

Daniel
The main problem with a Kia Carnival (I had one) was it was such a long wheelbase it was hard to get out of a parking space if someone parked close to you also even with the third row it is hard for a mother to reach around to put a small one in a car seat.
Obviously I have not drawn it up as strong as it would have to be and I may do a better job or forget about it and the car industry.
By the way the six side panels would be exactly the same size as the .55m wide doors but welded in place and I am sure that would give the body as much strength as the front, middle and rear pillars on a conventional vehicle.
Lastly I cannot see Ford being able to continue here with such low sales.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Albatross » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:54 pm

PoweredByCNG wrote:"Australia's Best Cars" recently awarded the Ford FG Falcon EcoLPi as the "Best Large Car Under $60,000 of 2011".

http://www.australiasbestcars.com.au/2011/large_under.htm

With a 715km full to empty range (assuming mixed urban/highway driving, 12.3L / 100km), the world-class 6-speed ZF automatic gearbox and more power / torque than the petrol variant (198kW @ 5000rpm / 409Nm @ 3250rpm vs. 195kW @ 6000rpm / 391Nm @ 3250rpm), there's now no good reason to pick the petrol Falcon over the LPG Falcon for 95% of Australians. Prices for the FG MkII have dropped in comparison to the FG MkI too.


Agreed completely. Not too happy though that the government has jacked the price of LPG up though just as this has been released. It's currently 89.9 cents a litre where I am. I remember my mum complaining about 89.9 cents a litre being expensive for petrol.

Is what I was told about Ford actually detuning the gas engine and that it can actually have an embarrassing amount more power over the petrol Falcon?
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby PoweredByCNG » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:19 pm

Albatross wrote:Agreed completely. Not too happy though that the government has jacked the price of LPG up though just as this has been released. It's currently 89.9 cents a litre where I am. I remember my mum complaining about 89.9 cents a litre being expensive for petrol.


Remember that the market value of LPG fluctuates according to northern hemisphere demands. Expect significant LPG price drops over the coming months as demand eases. At 89.9cpl, the EcoLPi Falcon will cost $11.05 per 100km on fuel to run, compared to $13.35 per 100km for a petrol Falcon if 91RON ULP was 135.0cpl. That would be a worst-case comparison. Let's not forget that private motorists can still apply for the $2,000 federal rebate after purchasing a factory-fitted LPG car.

Is what I was told about Ford actually detuning the gas engine and that it can actually have an embarrassing amount more power over the petrol Falcon?


This is true. Ford have also had to under-market the EcoLPi as well as the petrol I6 engine because of various probationary driver rules across the country. When 98RON PULP is used on the petrol I6, the power rises to 209kW @ 6000rpm and 420Nm @ 3250rpm. The EcoLPi engine was actually detuned by Orbital Autogas for several reasons: additional fuel economy, the fact that the tuned EcoLPi engine kept blowing diffs due to the high torque and to preserve sales of XR6 Turbo variants. Actual output of the EcoLPi engine is actually slightly higher than that of the petrol I6 running on 98RON PULP owing to the 12.5:1 compression ratio. In back-to-back testing done by the media a few months back when a petrol Falcon fuelled with 98RON was compared with an EcoLPi Falcon, the EcoLPi Falcon was clearly superior in all counts, with nothing holding either vehicle back.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby PoweredByCNG » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:25 pm

eddy wrote:PoweredByCNG A lot of young families would love to buy a $60,000 car but they have not got that sort of money also you still have the same problem that it will not take 6 people and the mother still has to get one child out the right hand side of the car lastly there are plenty of cars in that price range to choose from.


$60,000 was just the award category. The list price for a MY11 FG Falcon XT Mk1 EcoLPi was $42,790. The list price for a MY12 FG Falcon XR6 Mk2 EcoLPi is $42,990 which in fact is more than $1,000 less than the list price of a Commodore SV6 petrol, and that's BEFORE you consider dealer discounting and the $2,000 federal LPG rebate!
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Albatross » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:14 pm

PoweredByCNG wrote:
Remember that the market value of LPG fluctuates according to northern hemisphere demands. Expect significant LPG price drops over the coming months as demand eases. At 89.9cpl, the EcoLPi Falcon will cost $11.05 per 100km on fuel to run, compared to $13.35 per 100km for a petrol Falcon if 91RON ULP was 135.0cpl. That would be a worst-case comparison. Let's not forget that private motorists can still apply for the $2,000 federal rebate after purchasing a factory-fitted LPG car.


I seem to recall hearing something about the government increasing the tax on LPG to that equivalent to petrol which would explain the price hike. I've never, ever seen gas over 80 cents a litre and the Ballina area is absolutely notorious for expensive fuel. I actually looked into having the Commodore put on gas and the guy who installs the gas systems straight out told me in this area it just wasn't worth it because it would take me forever to recoup the costs of the conversion.

PoweredByCNG wrote:This is true. Ford have also had to under-market the EcoLPi as well as the petrol I6 engine because of various probationary driver rules across the country. When 98RON PULP is used on the petrol I6, the power rises to 209kW @ 6000rpm and 420Nm @ 3250rpm. The EcoLPi engine was actually detuned by Orbital Autogas for several reasons: additional fuel economy, the fact that the tuned EcoLPi engine kept blowing diffs due to the high torque and to preserve sales of XR6 Turbo variants. Actual output of the EcoLPi engine is actually slightly higher than that of the petrol I6 running on 98RON PULP owing to the 12.5:1 compression ratio. In back-to-back testing done by the media a few months back when a petrol Falcon fuelled with 98RON was compared with an EcoLPi Falcon, the EcoLPi Falcon was clearly superior in all counts, with nothing holding either vehicle back.


Assuming you didn't have to worry about blowing diffs and the transmission etc, how much power do you reckon you could get out of the gas Falcon if you tuned it back to it's "natural" specification? [ P plate mode off/]

Also how could the Falcon run afoul of P plate laws if it's a 6 cylinder? Is the gas engine turbo/supercharged or something?
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby PoweredByCNG » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:22 pm

Albatross wrote:I seem to recall hearing something about the government increasing the tax on LPG to that equivalent to petrol which would explain the price hike. I've never, ever seen gas over 80 cents a litre and the Ballina area is absolutely notorious for expensive fuel. I actually looked into having the Commodore put on gas and the guy who installs the gas systems straight out told me in this area it just wasn't worth it because it would take me forever to recoup the costs of the conversion.


The application of excise on LPG and CNG has already commenced and sits at 2.5cpl. By 2016, the excise will be 12.5cpl and will be capped at that value. Petrol excise at the moment is 38cpl.

Assuming you didn't have to worry about blowing diffs and the transmission etc, how much power do you reckon you could get out of the gas Falcon if you tuned it back to it's "natural" specification? [ P plate mode off/]


The only figures that I have are rumours, but if you look at the power curve of the EcoLPi engine, you will see that it flattens out by about 4700rpm and remains at a similar level all the way to 6000rpm, meaning that there is a HEAP of headroom for tuning.

Also how could the Falcon run afoul of P plate laws if it's a 6 cylinder? Is the gas engine turbo/supercharged or something?


No, but some states don't allow L and P-platers to drive cars fitted with engines that officially produce over 200kW.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Albatross » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:34 pm

Interesting. I wonder how Ford got their I6 engine to be able to handle a 6,000 rpm redline. Do you know how they handle being "thrashed" quite a bit?

Do you have any idea what a gas I6 turbo would be like? Have Ford considered such a vehicle?
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby PoweredByCNG » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:33 pm

Albatross wrote:Interesting. I wonder how Ford got their I6 engine to be able to handle a 6,000 rpm redline. Do you know how they handle being "thrashed" quite a bit?


The 6000rpm redline came with the introduction of the Barra I6 with the BA. I'd say that a lot of testing would have been done to ensure longevity, otherwise Ford wouldn't have allowed it. Plus, we haven't heard any horror stories revolving around the I6 which is a good sign.

Do you have any idea what a gas I6 turbo would be like? Have Ford considered such a vehicle?


I6 Turbo has been done as a dual-fuel setup by Orbital Autogas and ICOM JTG (both liquid injection). The results are really good with the JTG system making significantly more power and torque on LPG than petrol and that's without a unique tune. I actually have the dyno charts somewhere. I can forward them to you if I can find them if you wish...
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby Andrew » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:43 pm

LPG injected diesel = way of the future.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby PoweredByCNG » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:58 pm

Andrew wrote:LPG injected diesel = way of the future.


It's a good technology, but they need to work on higher diesel substitution rates to make the whole idea viable. The initial outlay for such a system is in the region of $4000 - the same as the cost of the best LPG systems for spark-ignited engines.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby snoopy77 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:30 pm

Neither.I will save up enough money and in a few years whatever I can for the Micra is being traded in for a Fiat 500
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby scott » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:26 am

Holden will be making cars in Australia for at least another 10 years, after the federal and SA governments gave them a $200 million dollar grant, and the Victorian government is expected to announce a further $10 million.

Ford will be gone by the end of the decade for sure unless they get another big handout.
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Re: FORD OR HOLDEN???

Postby eddy » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:13 pm

Is that money to help Holden design a different sort of car or just to stop them going broke for a while?
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