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Double Deckers vs Bendies

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state

Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby Linto63 » Wed May 09, 2018 12:20 pm

Copied from viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84327

tonyp wrote:Journey time is an important factor with many if not most commuters.
As is comfort, plenty will opt to sit for 60 minutes rather than stand for 50.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby tonyp » Wed May 09, 2018 6:35 pm

Linto63 wrote:Copied from http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... =3&t=84327

tonyp wrote:Journey time is an important factor with many if not most commuters.
As is comfort, plenty will opt to sit for 60 minutes rather than stand for 50.

The point is that it's not one extreme or the other. In that hypothetical artic journey you'd be unlikely to be standing for more than 20 to 30 minutes because of turnover en route.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby Linto63 » Wed May 09, 2018 6:48 pm

Ultimately it is a personal choice, but for some that will be 20 minutes too long. The name of the game is to encourage people to use public transport, and the more unpleasant they find it, the more likely they will seek alternatives.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby Merc1107 » Thu May 10, 2018 12:28 am

Sounds similar to the B-sets in Perth. While on the one hand, having the "subway style" seating is useful for moving crowds of people during the peaks, outside of the peaks I suspect more people would be travelling longer distances on the Northern and Southern lines (such as Pension-card holders who get free travel outside of peak) who would prefer the seating layout that emphasises seated passengers.

On the heritage lines, end-to-end journeys are much quicker with greater turnover en-route (as a rough guess). In that application, and given the smaller railcar sets, the subway style seating seems just fine.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby tonyp » Thu May 10, 2018 7:21 am

Merc1107 wrote:Sounds similar to the B-sets in Perth. While on the one hand, having the "subway style" seating is useful for moving crowds of people during the peaks, outside of the peaks I suspect more people would be travelling longer distances on the Northern and Southern lines (such as Pension-card holders who get free travel outside of peak) who would prefer the seating layout that emphasises seated passengers.

On the heritage lines, end-to-end journeys are much quicker with greater turnover en-route (as a rough guess). In that application, and given the smaller railcar sets, the subway style seating seems just fine.

The argument is paralleled in the discussion of single deck vs double deck trains and Perth is the case that demonstrates the significance of fast journey time to counterbalance the fact of less seats (Perth's train journeys are much quicker per distance/number of stops than Sydney's). It certainly didn't discourage people from public transport in Perth as train patronage grew some 700% since these trains were introduced and I feel that this was due to the speed of the services regardless of provision of seating. From personal experience I've always found a seat on a Perth train off-peak and when you have to stand in peak, the journey is so quick that standing doesn't trouble you as much as it does in a Sydney train.

As for buses in Perth, I don't think they'll ever need double deckers because the transport system is based on interchange and the buses mostly don't travel long distances and those that do (such as the 998/999 circle route) have constant turnover en route.

Generally it can be said that the slower the journey time, the more the need for seats. Distance isn't the issue, it's journey time over the distance that's significant. Standing is more acceptable if you feel like you're getting somewhere fast, especially if it's faster than it takes to get there in your car (which is often one of the Perth system's highlights). Sydney's long unbroken (that is, without interchange) suburban routes, either train or bus, need more seating because the journey time is so long. The Sydney Metro, which will offer Perth-level performance, will hopefully break this spell.

Quite evidently then, a double decker bus with 90 seats is going to be more attractive on one of Sydney's long, low-turnover suburban routes (such as northern beaches) than an artic with 57 seats. Artics are (or should be) used as the bus industry's "trams" - vehicles with high capacity and fast turnover capability on shorter routes with high turnover en route. The reason this topic has come up for discussion (on the Sydney thread and then transferred across to here) is not to argue that artics should be used on long-distance suburban routes, but because there is some discussion of replacing artics with deckers on shorter distance, high turnover routes. This would be just insane, as was well-proven in Sydney decades ago.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby Tim Williams » Fri May 11, 2018 9:47 am

I think passengers are happier standing in trains rather than buses, for the obvious reasons that trains accelerate and decelerate in a much more steady ans progressive manner, that they are not subject to sudden changes of direction/speed through the unfortunate necessity of evasive action and that smoothness (or otherwise) bus rides are in the hands of drivers and their method of driving.

From a personal aspect and being an older person, I am happy to "strap hang" (stand) on trains in Singapore or Hong Kong (which is quite usual in both places), but not so on the buses, especially in Hong Kong, where the driving is far more spirited and the topography all over the place.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby tonyp » Fri May 11, 2018 11:16 am

Tim Williams wrote:I think passengers are happier standing in trains rather than buses, for the obvious reasons that trains accelerate and decelerate in a much more steady ans progressive manner, that they are not subject to sudden changes of direction/speed through the unfortunate necessity of evasive action and that smoothness (or otherwise) bus rides are in the hands of drivers and their method of driving.

From a personal aspect and being an older person, I am happy to "strap hang" (stand) on trains in Singapore or Hong Kong (which is quite usual in both places), but not so on the buses, especially in Hong Kong, where the driving is far more spirited and the topography all over the place.

When you say trains, that can be extended to electric vehicles generally (trams and buses), due to the jerk-free acceleration and deceleration. However, gearboxes in engine-driven buses have improved markedly over the years and it's not such an issue there either. For the rest, it's down to the driving standards that an operator insists on with its drivers.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby Tim Williams » Fri May 11, 2018 12:20 pm

I think whilst drivers have a lot to do with the smoothness of a bus ride, there are so many other considerations out of their control on roads, the road surface (bumps and potholes), hills, traffic lights, passengers signalling at the last minute (for getting on or off), other traffic - (avoidance/emergency stops etc.).

With trains it is all almost "pre-planned" - known stops (stations and signals), it is rare that they have to slam on brakes to avoid something.

This is well off the topic here and I think it is down to me!!
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby burrumbus » Fri May 11, 2018 6:03 pm

The standard of driving(and therefore the bus ride quality)is the biggest single issue in the bus industry,I feel.Most of the large route bus operators just have huge problems in attracting(and more importantly)retaining quality drivers.Most route operators just employ any one with the licence and authority card,regardless of their driving ability.If the industry can attract and retain higher quality drivers(on average)I think the patronage numbers will improve.
Perhaps driving apprenticeships or traineeships may be the way to go.And coupled with changes in shift and roster design.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby boronia » Fri May 11, 2018 7:20 pm

There is a "Certificate in Transport and Distribution" with levels 1,2 and 3 available to existing drivers or would be drivers. Recognised by Dept of Education and Training.

Many companies put their drivers through the course these days. Mainly because the get funding to do so.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby TA3001 » Fri May 11, 2018 8:02 pm

burrumbus wrote:The standard of driving(and therefore the bus ride quality)is the biggest single issue in the bus industry,I feel.Most of the large route bus operators just have huge problems in attracting(and more importantly)retaining quality drivers.Most route operators just employ any one with the licence and authority card,regardless of their driving ability.If the industry can attract and retain higher quality drivers(on average)I think the patronage numbers will improve.
Perhaps driving apprenticeships or traineeships may be the way to go.And coupled with changes in shift and roster design.


The drivers I dislike are the ones that don't try to make up time regardless of how late they're running, and also those jokers that tap the accelerator continuously to keep the vehicle in motion, rather than just keeping their foot in a neutral position to maintain the speed they intend to do.

The most accurate examples of these types drivers drive for Torrens Transit's Newton depot. The other ones mentioned are few and far between fortunately, but make the ride very uncomfortable when you happen to end up on the bus they're driving.
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Re: Double Deckers vs Bendies

Postby tonyp » Fri May 11, 2018 8:11 pm

Tram advocates get a lot of mileage out of comparing to the ride experience in buses, but when you have travelled in jurisdictions where they obviously inculcate high standards in their drivers, you can see that a lot of that issue boils down to drivers. Road quality can play a part, depending on quality of suspension, as can traffic, but I feel those issues are not as significant. If you ride a bus in a city like Perth with its good roads and generally good bus drivers, I'm danged if I can identify much quality difference from riding a tram. Many new bus models on the road now are also quieter than most trams and trolley and electric buses are almost silent.

Yet another area in which some of the bus industry should lift its game and present its capabilities better.
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