Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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tonyp
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by tonyp »

I don't know whether this is the best thread to post this on, but I have come across some interesting figures from Pilsen in Czech Republic, a regional city that has been trialling battery buses of various types but also has an existing fleet of about 95 trolleybuses, about 1/3 of them artics, all buses fully 100% low floor and the majority able to run off-wire (Pilsen has sections of unwired trolleybus routes).

The figures relate to hours and distances run by trolleybuses on weekdays and weekends and, from these figures, it's possible to calculate average hours and distances operated on weekdays and weekends. The weekday data is distorted by split shifts etc (more buses operating in peaks and returning to depot off-peak), so I've selected Saturdays (basically the same on Sundays and holidays), where buses run continuously, as an example. Being a regional city, there are no extraordinarily long routes (though a couple go out into the countryside off-wire), but the route lengths would be similar to many of those in inner west and east Sydney, like route 16 is about 9 km with 17 compulsory stops, taking 30 minutes - roughly similar to Sydney's city to Burwood or Coogee Beach services.
PlzenTrolleybusesSaturday.JPG
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From observations it seems to me that most European battery bus manufacturers are claiming charge-free ranges of about 250-300 km which fits with the above operational distances, but the Chinese ones coming to Australia are claiming more like 300 to 400 hours, probably down to the range anxiety and at the cost of breaking up the low floor (and/or other passenger spaces) to fit more batteries on board.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Hey Tony

I had the answer to electric busses here but someone removed it

If you are interested pm me mate
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Paul, from the California clean air act, wants to increase production of electric trucks so I suggested my Trailerbus to him.

Not only would it allow the big batteries to be charged overnight but having no overhead wires allows a top deck for those going end to end.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Terry McSweeney writes a lovely letter but as I cannot respond I thought I may post my reply here hoping he may understand trailerbuses are to replace trams.

Thanks for the PDF Tue, Feb 25, 4:22 PM Ref: 00983546

Big battery Trailerbuses with many wheels are designed to replace trams so for example instead of costing $3b for George street it could be done better with 60 trailerbuses for $300m with a bus stop with Opal reader every 300m and with NO OVERTAKING there would be no bunching as when another is behind and no person wants to alight he just keeps going.

As they say it is not what you do but how you do it and DD buses have a bad reputation for dwell time however if there is just one next stop buzzer adjacent to the big doors passengers would alight as soon as the DD bus stops just like a DD train resulting with only those going a long way using the upstairs big comfortable seats.

There a few advantages with the DD Trailerbus https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... ailer-2012 apart from the cost, 9,000 people per hour each way in the peaks, overnight charging with reduced peak demand on the grid and cheap electricity and big comfortable seats up top for tourists and those going end to end.

Once again, I thank you for your reply and would love to discuss this further with any technical people you have.

Regards Eddy Barnett
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by tonyp »

Electric MB articulated Citaros are being considered for the east-west connections between Gold Coast Light Rail and the Gold Coast railway. This is the typical type of 100% low-floor European city bus with multiple doors front to back that has been in operation in Europe for about a quarter of a century. Nothing special at all, except that there hasn't been a RHD market for them so far, so no manufacturer has bothered to swap the rear drive train over to the other side yet. This is what MB is now offering and has also promoted this in Canberra in the past, prior to the decision to build light rail there.

The main issue at the moment is that MB's platform is too wide for Australian regs, but if they got an adequate order, no doubt they could change this. It also should be able to carry anything up to 120 passengers (depending on axle load) because with a flat floor and a door behind the rear axle it will be able to process passenger throughput more efficiently than our typical local artic with a high-floor "cave" up the back.

RHD render for Gold Coast:
Image

Base European model in LHD:
Image

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2678237882274504
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Tony

Just my opinion but they are only single deck and insufficient wheels to carry a big enough battery to charge overnight to stabilise grid load and get cheap power like the Trailerbus https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... ailer-2012
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tonyp
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by tonyp »

eddy wrote:Tony

Just my opinion but they are only single deck and insufficient wheels to carry a big enough battery to charge overnight to stabilise grid load and get cheap power like the Trailerbus https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... ailer-2012
Here you go eddy:

Postal: Daimler AG 70546 Stuttgart Germany
Phone: +49 711 17 0 Fax: +49 711 17 22244
e-mail: dialog@daimler.com
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Thanks mate I sent them a link to here.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by gld59 »

tonyp wrote:Postal: Daimler AG 70546 Stuttgart Germany
Phone: +49 711 17 0 Fax: +49 711 17 22244
e-mail: dialog@daimler.com
Phone no. *very* short (and 4 digits shorter than fax). Did you lose some digits?

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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by tonyp »

gld59 wrote: Phone no. *very* short (and 4 digits shorter than fax). Did you lose some digits?
Just copied and pasted off the Daimler website. I honestly wasn't expecting eddy to proceed any further but there's determination for you! It will be interesting to see the first MB trailerbus.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

At present we import our bus chassis to Australia and when the mechanicals wear out we sell the whole bus for scrap but with a the Trailerbus only the prime mover needs replacing and as we are good at making drop deck trailers they can be substantially built to give a comfortable ride over 30 years.

True they cannot be used on all bus routes but at 10% the cost of trams a prototype should be built for the public to experience.

This is the email I sent to SCOMO yesterday as we need as many jobs in Australia as possible.

This is the email I tried to send to Transport for NSW and as I have no reply perhaps you may be interested as we make trailers in Australia.

Thanks for the PDF Tue, Feb 25, 4:22 PM Ref: 00983546

Big battery Trailerbuses with many wheels are designed to replace trams so for example instead of costing $3b for George street it could be done better with 60 trailerbuses for $300m with a bus stop with Opal reader every 300m and with NO OVERTAKING there would be no bunching as when another is behind and no person wants to alight he just keeps going.

As they say it is not what you do but how you do it and DD buses have a bad reputation for dwell time however if there is just one next stop buzzer adjacent to the big doors passengers would alight as soon as the DD bus stops just like a DD train resulting with only those going a long way using the upstairs big comfortable seats.

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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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I note that after trialling wireless buses, Berlin has made a big decision to go for in-motion charging:

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.co ... lleybuses/
http://www.tbus.org.uk/news.htm

To achieve electrification of its bus fleet by 2030, Berlin is planning a return of trolleybuses as the economical optimum for its trunk lines with IMC overhead 'as much as necessary and as much as possible' likely to provide wiring for 50-65% of key routes. Technical appraisal has shown that a dynamic trolleybus system will have no impact on the service timetable or the fleet size otherwise due to long recharging times at terminii and will allow for higher ranges and larger bus units, such 24m tbuses. Route M32 has been approved by operator BVG as a pilot for a network of 235km with 141km wired (61%), requiring 190 articulated and double articulated tbuses at a cost of 300m euros. Investment is expected to be 50% of other e-bus technologies and has potential for future conversion to light rail following expected increases in passengers carried.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

tonyp wrote:I note that after trialling wireless buses, Berlin has made a big decision to go for in-motion charging:

https://www.urban-transport-magazine.co ... lleybuses/
http://www.tbus.org.uk/news.htm

To achieve electrification of its bus fleet by 2030, Berlin is planning a return of trolleybuses as the economical optimum for its trunk lines with IMC overhead 'as much as necessary and as much as possible' likely to provide wiring for 50-65% of key routes. Technical appraisal has shown that a dynamic trolleybus system will have no impact on the service timetable or the fleet size otherwise due to long recharging times at terminii and will allow for higher ranges and larger bus units, such 24m tbuses. Route M32 has been approved by operator BVG as a pilot for a network of 235km with 141km wired (61%), requiring 190 articulated and double articulated tbuses at a cost of 300m euros. Investment is expected to be 50% of other e-bus technologies and has potential for future conversion to light rail following expected increases in passengers carried.
Many bus makers do not want full electric buses in NSW as it not only costs three times as much to charge them in the peak but could cause supply problems on the grid and would prefer diesel/electric hybrids.

I think they are right as my brother has had a few Toyota hybrids and they are amazing however in city operations a full Trailerbus that has a big battery that can be charged overnight when there is plenty of cheap electricity is the way to go in my opinion especially because without overhead wires you can have big comfortable seats up top for tourists and those going end to end.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

As the federal government is spending heaps to keep people working, I suggested building a prototype Trailerbus to test public reaction and this is the email I sent them.

At present much money is being spent to stimulate the economy until the virus threat is over and I believe it would be good to build a prototype Trailerbus https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... ailer-2012 to test public reaction
I have discussed it with others on the ATDB forum http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... 8&start=50
Regards Eddy

They thanked me and referred it back to NSW
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

In this video on hybrid London DD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyJZQ5sUvMc you can see the stop buttons upstairs at 2.04

No wonder DD get such a bad reputation for long dwell times.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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tonyp wrote:Electric MB articulated Citaros are being considered for the east-west connections between Gold Coast Light Rail and the Gold Coast railway. This is the typical type of 100% low-floor European city bus with multiple doors front to back that has been in operation in Europe for about a quarter of a century. Nothing special at all, except that there hasn't been a RHD market for them so far, so no manufacturer has bothered to swap the rear drive train over to the other side yet. This is what MB is now offering and has also promoted this in Canberra in the past, prior to the decision to build light rail there.

The main issue at the moment is that MB's platform is too wide for Australian regs, but if they got an adequate order, no doubt they could change this. It also should be able to carry anything up to 120 passengers (depending on axle load) because with a flat floor and a door behind the rear axle it will be able to process passenger throughput more efficiently than our typical local artic with a high-floor "cave" up the back.

RHD render for Gold Coast:
Image

Base European model in LHD:
Image

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2678237882274504
Tony, people on Skyscraper city only want light rail and are not concerned with the cost and I think they run the show.

In the past buses have been smelly, jerky and noisy and they cannot see it any other way.

As you know I have been pushing for just a prototype Trailerbus to gauge public reaction but even that has been ridiculed.

It seem that if it has not been done it cannot be done now in Australia.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by eddy »

Samara Dobbins, Chief People Officer on behalf of the NSW Premier sent me an email Ref: CMU20-5536, 8 April 2020 saying the Prime minister had referred the electric Trailerbus to her and it had been forwarded to the NSW minister for transport.

I am not sure if it is worth ringing him regarding it or I am the only one who can see merit in it.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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I decided to ring the number the Premier gave me and a recorded message said because of the virus they were flat out and they would ring me back.

How long should I wait so I can discuss it with somebody technical?
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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Saw this video on trackless trams https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i3aVMKBgFU and I think a dwell time of ten minutes is far too long especially increasing peak demand at peak demand power price.

Agreed the swept area is very good but, in my opinion, they really need a big battery like the Trailerbus even if it is just for ten years until batteries have improved to such a degree it is possible to buy a trackless tram off the shelf.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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I know the Railway Age https://www.railwayage.com/news/could-c ... ight-rail/ is biased but they do have a point about batteries not being up to the job yet and normally if you increase the size you bugger the road and reduce passenger space.

Therefore, I still think the Trailerbus with many wheels could operate easily on a dedicated route like a 14.5m bus in place of a tram particularly being DD.

We do not want to waste money like George street again especially as the country will not have much spare cash after the virus.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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eddy wrote:How long should I wait so I can discuss it with somebody technical?
7 to 10 business years.

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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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BroadGauge wrote:
eddy wrote:How long should I wait so I can discuss it with somebody technical?
7 to 10 business years.
I think you may be right as I am still waiting, maybe I should have left my phone number.

Thinking more about why there is reluctance about going DD on trackless trams I believe it is < five minutes people do not go upstairs but >than five minutes they do and most trams trips are less than five minutes but it would not hurt to have big comfortable seats up top for tourists and those going end to end.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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DENNING-ELEMENT-green-landscape-2-cover-story-studio-(1).jpg
DENNING-ELEMENT-green-landscape-2-cover-story-studio-(1).jpg (12.47 KiB) Viewed 1830 times
What about the new Denning Element - fully Australian, using the same technology as the e-Citaro, lightweight construction, maybe with a full low-floor (to keep Tonyp happy!!!). It seems like a great piece of innovation from Custom-Denning.

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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

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Tim Williams wrote:What about the new Denning Element - fully Australian, using the same technology as the e-Citaro, lightweight construction, maybe with a full low-floor (to keep Tonyp happy!!!). It seems like a great piece of innovation from Custom-Denning.
I've been keeping an eye on this but there's little detail at present. It does appear to have a low-floor chassis with a portal axle but Australian builders can't seem to resist putting high floors on low-floor chassis. I'm rapidly going off these straight battery buses. There are so many functionality compromises that they're only suitable for lower capacity work and they're ridiculously expensive for that. The European trend towards in-motion charging using overhead wires and high capacity buses with uncompromised functionality is the better direction. I think the trading and technology relationship with China is going to change too and we should be looking towards Europe which is best with this technology. Certainly Mercedes Benz is waiting in the sidelines here for the opportunity and local agencies should start talking with them.
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Re: Electric bus - how to get artics viably electrified

Post by Tim Williams »

I have always been a fan of Citaro's having ridden on them in Singapore and a little in the UK, our width restrictions are silly, as has been noted previously, roads in Europe (incl. the UK) can be narrow and congested and wider buses seem to cope alright!! I know little about the electric ones, but a prototype is either in service or about to, in Singapore.

I think that the idea of regular on-route charging stations is very good, keeps the technology simple (in theory, that is) and there is obviously then a much lower requirement for battery storage. I still have a fondness for trolleybuses, having grown up in the UK, where there were lots of them, but I do appreciate the dislike of wiring and the operational limitations. In the UK electricity became expensive, when (I am led to believe) the ownership of power supplies moved local authorities to a national grid and thus with some sort of political type change, trolleybuses suddenly became more expensive to operate than motor buses

On another subject, It is interesting that (tonyp) you make the point that whilst the new Denning Chassis might full low floor, they may be built as just low entrance, operator preference maybe? In 1978/9 the STA Adelaide had just over 300 Volvo B59's built to the then standard Adelaide (built by PMC), complete with narrow entrance and exit doors and a relatively high floor throughout. In 1975 I spend 2 months in Finland and other Scandinavian countries and saw what could by achieved by building bodies with wide doors and low floors for half the bus on the B59 chassis. I took photos of these, mainly in the capitals of Helsinki, Stockholm and Copenhagen, sent a few of the photos to the STA in Adelaide, who showed very little interest and basically said that their body design was perfect (for Adelaide). Talk about blinkered vision, the Adelaide body virtually nullified a lot of the potential layout advantages of the B59.

I might try and scan in some of those Volvo B59 colour slides, if I can locate them!!

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