• Advertisement

Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state

Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby Denv12 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:55 pm

I'm trying to get some idea of the progress in bus building from the days of the wood/timber frame bodies to the steel framed in Australia? What year did bus and coach body frames started being built from the wooden frames to steel frames? Which company started first? Was it 1950s? 1960s? Photos welcome too.Thanks.

Update:
Thank you to all of you for your replies.Some very interesting history there.
Last edited by Denv12 on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denv12
 
Posts: 1071
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:17 pm
Has thanked: 552 times
Been thanked: 162 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby boronia » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:15 pm

As early as 1930:
https://www.sydneybusmuseum.info/1500


IIRC, Waddington's in Sydney were building steel framed deckers from the mid 1930s.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16670
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 1474 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby system improver » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:41 pm

In Victoria:
H A Grummet & Son never made the transition and ceased building bus bodies in 1955.
Martin & King built bus bodies for both private operators (a few) and the MMTB including the double deckers and AEC Mark III, the latter being metal framed. Their last bus was bodied in 1954.
Cheetham & Borwick built metal framed buses for the MMTB in the 30s. They released one for private operators in 1942 but the war stymied that a bit. They next built metal framed buses in 1959 on the Bedford chassis and subsequent bodies were metal framed until they ceased building bus bodies in 1976.
Symons & Fowler began building metal framed buses in 1953 and ceased building buses in 1959.
R F Weber built bus bodies from the 20s but, as far as I know, it was not until that he started building buses at Peninsula BL in 1944 that metal framed buses were built. He ceased building buses in 1960.
Ansair built buses from 1945 and built their first metal framed bus in 1949 (the Transett). They ceased building buses in 1995, although their designs continued for another 4 years with subsequent owners.
CAC built buses from 1946 to 1980 and all were metal framed.
Freighter built buses in Moorabbin from 1954 to 1967 - all metal framed.
Noreng built buses from 1957 to 1962, all composite bodies.
Mee built buses from 1962 to 1988 and all were metal framed.
R V Piper built buses from 1958 to 1966 and all were metal framed.
W A Newnham built buses from before WW1 with timber frames, but didn't build many buses up until 1947 when they then specialised in vans. They formed a partnership with CCMC in 1967 and went to metal frames. Infact, their first buses in this relationship were framed in Sydney and finished off in Melbourne.
There were a few other smaller bus builders but I have no info about their construction method, although given that they were all pre-1960, the likelihood is that they used composite framing.
User avatar
system improver
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:38 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 437 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1949 MBA Seddon

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby Denv12 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:03 pm

boronia wrote:As early as 1930:
https://www.sydneybusmuseum.info/1500

IIRC, Waddington's in Sydney were building steel framed deckers from the mid 1930s.

Thanks boronia for the link.Its a great read.Thank you for helping out.
Denv12
 
Posts: 1071
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:17 pm
Has thanked: 552 times
Been thanked: 162 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby Denv12 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:06 pm

Thank you system improver for the reply.Thats very detailed history there.I guess thats one part of bus history we dont often hear about.I enjoyed reading your reply.Thank you.

I guess builders like Denning,etc all started off building steel frames too.
Denv12
 
Posts: 1071
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:17 pm
Has thanked: 552 times
Been thanked: 162 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby boronia » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:39 pm

I recall reading somewhere that Properts or Syd Wood were the last builders to use wooden frames for buses in NSW
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16670
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 1474 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby system improver » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:23 am

Syd Wood (1962) slightly outlasted Properts (1961) in building buses. I'd be interested to know when Watt ceased building composite framed buses. In Melbourne, Noreng built their last bus ( composite framed) in 1962.
User avatar
system improver
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:38 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 437 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1949 MBA Seddon

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby GM » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:01 pm

Clyde Eng Co - DRT & T - Our First All-Steel Buses - T & BT 08.1985
Attachments
Clyde Eng Co - DRT & T - Our First All-Steel Buses - T & BT 08.1985  - r.JPG
User avatar
GM
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: Central Coast
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 136 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby GM » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:07 pm

Did Motor Body Assemblers (MBA) ever build all Steel Bodies?
I thought Syd Wood tried All Metal Bodies?
Waddingtons built the ALL METAL BEDFORD. Transportation 1937.03 Page 15 - All Steel Bedford
Attachments
Transportation 1937.03 Page 15 - All Steel Bedford - r.JPG
Transportation 1937.03 Page 15 - All Steel Bedford - r.JPG (265.54 KiB) Viewed 694 times
User avatar
GM
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: Central Coast
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 136 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby system improver » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:56 pm

GM wrote:Did Motor Body Assemblers (MBA) ever build all Steel Bodies?...

I don't think so. Some of their last bus bodies were for TAA - 10 Leyland Tiger Cubs and 10 AECs - and they had composite bodies. MBA was owned, from 1943, by White Trucks and they then started building buses, having previously built car bodies. They built their last bus in 1959.
User avatar
system improver
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:38 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 437 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1949 MBA Seddon

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby GM » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:11 pm

System Improver - Did MBA build many buses after they moved to Flemington with White Trucks?
User avatar
GM
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: Central Coast
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 136 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby system improver » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:34 pm

GM wrote:System Improver - Did MBA build many buses after they moved to Flemington with White Trucks?


They were in Parramatta Road Camperdown and then moved to Flemington near the end. Here is an advert from T&BT from July 1957. According to the deliveries in T&BT, they were building less than ten buses per year with the last bus going to TAA (an AEC) in August 1959.
IMGP3388.JPG
IMGP3388.JPG (86.73 KiB) Viewed 609 times
User avatar
system improver
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:38 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 437 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1949 MBA Seddon

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby system improver » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:18 pm

boronia wrote:I recall reading somewhere that Properts or Syd Wood were the last builders to use wooden frames for buses in NSW

According to an article in T&BT (April 1959), Propert's made (at least) one all metal body, on an AEC chassis for Parramatta Bus Company. T&BT list about half a dozen subsequent deliveries before Propert's disappears from the delivery page.
IMGP3504 - Copy.JPG
IMGP3504 - Copy.JPG (128.02 KiB) Viewed 492 times
User avatar
system improver
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:38 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 437 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1949 MBA Seddon

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby system improver » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:30 pm

IMGP3505 - Copy.JPG
IMGP3505 - Copy.JPG (125.22 KiB) Viewed 492 times
User avatar
system improver
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:38 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 437 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1949 MBA Seddon

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby tonyp » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:21 am

So Properts "re-entered" the industry in 1959 - they didn't last very long then! Do you know when they were building buses prior to this, system improver?

They didn't have the stylistic panache of Syd Wood. They needed a good designer. The only Propert body I can remember is 4320 which Hunters Hill Bus Co bought second-hand from somebody (Artarmon?).
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6258
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 384 times
Been thanked: 635 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby system improver » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:50 am

tonyp wrote:So Properts "re-entered" the industry in 1959 - they didn't last very long then! Do you know when they were building buses prior to this, system improver?

They didn't have the stylistic panache of Syd Wood. They needed a good designer. The only Propert body I can remember is 4320 which Hunters Hill Bus Co bought second-hand from somebody (Artarmon?).

Before the September 1958 delivery to Parramatta BC, the previous delivery (at least the ones recorded in T&BT) was April 1956.
User avatar
system improver
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:38 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 327 times
Been thanked: 437 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1949 MBA Seddon

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby boronia » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:40 am

Properts were still in business in the early 1970s, building commercial vehicle bodies, including fire engines for the NSW Fire Brigades.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16670
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 1474 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby tonyp » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:08 am

And Syd Wood (as Eswood) is still in business making commercial dishwashers as it was in the 1930s before it went into bus bodies as a "sideline"! Does anybody have a record of which was the first Syd Wood bus?
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6258
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 384 times
Been thanked: 635 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby GM » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:59 pm

tonyp I have attached two pieces of information re Syd Wood for your perusal.
As far as I am aware ESWOOD was an off shoot of Syd Wood by a member of his family? GM
Attachments
Pict4466 - r.JPG
Pict4469 - r.JPG
Pict4469 - r.JPG (113.59 KiB) Viewed 374 times
User avatar
GM
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: Central Coast
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 136 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby GM » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:29 pm

Re Properts -
The reason for the local body work, as noted by John Dunn in ‘Comeng: A History of Commonwealth Engineering Vo1 1: 1921-1955’, was that during World War I there were few ships and little space to import entire cars to Australia so chassis only began to arrive here. By the 1920s the enormous growth in demand for cars led to the development of a local thriving motor body building industry. As well as Smith & Waddington Ltd other Sydney firms included: R.L. Archer at 112 Parramatta Road; the Missenden Road Body Works Ltd; Propert Motor Body Co. at Newtown; and Lou Fitch’s body works and E.E. Agate at Summer Hill. During this time there were some 90 different car makers advertising 300 model variations. GM
User avatar
GM
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:05 pm
Location: Central Coast
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 136 times

Re: Timber Frames To Metal Frame On Buses/Coaches?

Postby tonyp » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:30 am

GM wrote:Re Properts -
The reason for the local body work, as noted by John Dunn in ‘Comeng: A History of Commonwealth Engineering Vo1 1: 1921-1955’, was that during World War I there were few ships and little space to import entire cars to Australia so chassis only began to arrive here. By the 1920s the enormous growth in demand for cars led to the development of a local thriving motor body building industry. As well as Smith & Waddington Ltd other Sydney firms included: R.L. Archer at 112 Parramatta Road; the Missenden Road Body Works Ltd; Propert Motor Body Co. at Newtown; and Lou Fitch’s body works and E.E. Agate at Summer Hill. During this time there were some 90 different car makers advertising 300 model variations. GM

It was actually the tariff regime that encouraged local body production. The tariffs on imported motor vehicle bodies were very high in order to encourage local manufacture. The tariffs on chassis were lower as these were not initially made here. Later, of course, with governments encouraging local manufacture, a complete motor industry emerged after WW2.

Re Syd Wood I must have been harking back to another (mis)interpretation of the company's history that I read somewhere. The dishwasher business dates from 1932.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6258
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 384 times
Been thanked: 635 times



  • Advertisement

Return to General Transport Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests