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[SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

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[SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby boxythingy » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:52 pm

http://www.smh.com.au/national/albanese ... 2fhaw.html

No S*it, trains are as quiet as mice! Just another petty excuse to say it's too expensive and more money wasted on HSR study

And to think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the non-barriered sections of the SSFL...
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby moreton » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:43 pm

It must be coming to an election soon, they trot out the Interstate High Speed rail story every election, its like 50 years now since it was 1st mooted, and it will be another 50 before it ever gets of the ground. Its a bit like fast broadband 10 towns or suburbs have it and can hardly tell the difference so while all the BS for ever and ever. They should have built the standard gauge 70 years ago during the depression, maybe they would of had it finished by now. Moreton :wink:
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:00 am

A 250 kph subway all the way from Parramatta to Canberra would cost no more than surface if you include grade separation everywhere or quality access roads either side of the line and could be done without disturbing anyone.

Parramatta to Canberra airport that has heaps of excess capacity in one hour also as Barry points out it would eliminate all the Sydney/Canberra flights now taking up time at Mascot and cost no more than a second Sydney basin airport.

Eventually when the population makes it viable it could be extended to other major cities.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby deepthought2006 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:30 pm

Eddy, can you seriously imagine the general population being attracted to a mode of transport which travels underground where there is NOTHING to look at out the windows for several hours (e.g. SYD-MEL or SYD-BNE)? Not to mention the associated motion sickness, unless the track was dead straight and level all the way.

We aren't all former miners, you know: many people don't like the feeling of being trapped in enclosed spaces so, although I don't like heights and my wife doesn't like enclosed spaces, for us the plane would win every time if they were the only two options.

Fencing of the high speed rail corridor need not be too expensive and I would think that the elimination of at-grade crossings would be an essential part of any railway proposal these days - high speed or not.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:27 am

Deepthought
There are many people who travel overnight on the train when there is nothing to see and maybe it is because I was a miner but I would feel much safer in a subway that had a breakdown than a plane.

Regarding eliminating ALL level crossings I believe it would be much more expensive than you imagine.

The track would be straight and level all the way and there are about to be huge increases in tunnel technology which in turn will dramatically reduce cost.


PS. Anyone going Sydney/Melbourne would still fly as it would be much quicker but I think intermediate travellers would prefer 250 kph subway to a bus.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby deepthought2006 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:21 pm

eddy wrote:There are many people who travel overnight on the train when there is nothing to see and maybe it is because I was a miner but I would feel much safer in a subway that had a breakdown than a plane.

Thanks for your reply, Eddy. It could work at night time for some people, but for others just the thought of being underground for several hours would freak them out, safer or not. Claustrophobia is an irrational fear, but very real nevertheless for those unfortunate sufferers. Same as fear of heights and flying.

eddy wrote:Regarding eliminating ALL level crossings I believe it would be much more expensive than you imagine.
Didn't say it wouldn't be expensive. Just necessary for any new surface-running rail line.

eddy wrote:The track would be straight and level all the way and there are about to be huge increases in tunnel technology which in turn will dramatically reduce cost.

You would have to go pretty deep to be able to get under some of the valleys in the Great Divide so if the line were to be built level some parts would be very deep. Safety issues for emergency evacuations?

I'm intrigued by the improved technology you mention. Care to elaborate?

eddy wrote:Anyone going Sydney/Melbourne would still fly as it would be much quicker but I think intermediate travellers would prefer 250 kph subway to a bus.

Maybe for those who don't mind long tunnels, otherwise I don't think so.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby boronia » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:46 pm

deepthought2006 wrote:Eddy, can you seriously imagine the general population being attracted to a mode of transport which travels underground where there is NOTHING to look at out the windows for several hours (e.g. SYD-MEL or SYD-BNE)? Not to mention the associated motion sickness, unless the track was dead straight and level all the way.
.

Try spending 12 or 14 hours in a plane. Not a lot to see out the windows either.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby deepthought2006 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:01 pm

boronia wrote:
deepthought2006 wrote:Eddy, can you seriously imagine the general population being attracted to a mode of transport which travels underground where there is NOTHING to look at out the windows for several hours (e.g. SYD-MEL or SYD-BNE)? Not to mention the associated motion sickness, unless the track was dead straight and level all the way.
.

Try spending 12 or 14 hours in a plane. Not a lot to see out the windows either.

Yes, done that - 12 hours stuck awake and sometimes somewhat bored in a plane, on 24 hour trips to London and back a couple of times. It was boring over the Timor Sea and Indian Ocean and over full overcast clouds over Europe and through a huge dust storm in the Middle East but pretty good going across India, the Persian Gulf, Syria, Turkey and Transylvania and some other parts of Europe that were not cloud covered at the time. So, yes, for many hours at a time we were stuck in a metal tube with nothing to look at outside. Still far better than being in a tunnel, though.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:17 am

Deepthought
You have touched on the problem here with peoples expectations.

People expect a conventional fast train that has to be elevated most of the way to avoid terrorist/kangaroo proof fences that in turn would require sealed roads either side of the line.

When in tunnels they expect segmental concrete lining that would cost $10,000/metre just for that lining in a 10m diameter tunnel that is needed for a full sized train at 250kph.

If people could accept that a train with the cross sectional area of a car to avoid windage in a tunnel only 3m in diameter being mainly self supporting due to the small diameter then fast subways could be everywhere with the operators still making huge profits even though the fares would be dirt cheap.

So the problem is peoples expectations, we want a gold plated VFT that we cannot afford so it comes back to “when all is said and done there is a lot more said than done”

Regarding new technology it is common now for a 10m diameter TBM in hard rock to achieve up to 100 metres per day and these TBM are based on a 50 year old concept, the big problem with tunneling in Sydney sandstone is the wear on picks. A roadheader gets approximately 2 cubic metres of rock per pick and TBM about I disc per 10m but the CSIRO in Queensland has developed a diamond paste that reduces the wear on a pick to only 2% so you can see the savings there in time and money.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby crazyturbo76 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:24 pm

eddy wrote:Deepthought
Regarding new technology it is common now for a 10m diameter TBM in hard rock to achieve up to 100 metres per day and these TBM are based on a 50 year old concept, the big problem with tunneling in Sydney sandstone is the wear on picks. A roadheader gets approximately 2 cubic metres of rock per pick and TBM about I disc per 10m but the CSIRO in Queensland has developed a diamond paste that reduces the wear on a pick to only 2% so you can see the savings there in time and money.


See guys-technology's far enough to allow a high-speed rail project! What's Albanese winging about-I think this might make a good point next State Election. Build a few tunnels underneath, maybe run the trains through the Domestic/International Airport stations and you've got a plan winner! Tunnels will get safer as tech improves and they get stronger and also become capable of handling really fast trains.

We need something like the Shinkansen or even something similar to the UK's High Speed 1 line-something that will allow for 200 km/h+ trains. Even if we have to build it out in the country a high speed link will do wonders.

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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby CityRail » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:46 am

$114 billion fare for fastest rail link

THE federal government's dream of a 350km/h rail link between Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane would cost $114 billion and involve 67km of tunnels under the heart of Sydney.

It would also transform Australia by cutting travel time between Sydney and Brisbane to just two hours and 37 minutes, and two hours and 44 minutes between Sydney and Melbourne.

A final report into the project, which the Gillard government is expected to give in-principle agreement to, admits that nothing of its scale has been tried anywhere in Australia.

It claims most of the project would have to be funded by government, with the returns of about 1 per cent falling well short to make the project commercially viable.

The $20 million feasibility study commissioned in 2010, to be released today, outlines a regional route from Sydney to Brisbane with stops at Central Coast, Newcastle, Taree, Port Macquarie and Coffs Harbour before reaching the Gold Coast and then Brisbane - taking three hours and nine minutes.

It would reach the Central Coast in 27 minutes, Newcastle in 39 minutes and Coffs Harbour in 1 hour 50 minutes.

The express, travelling at a top speed of 350km/h and an average 300km/h, would take just two hours and 37 minutes.

To the south, it would stop at the Southern Highlands, Wagga Wagga, Albury-Wodonga and Shepparton before reaching Melbourne in three hours and three minutes, or, as an express, in two hours and 44 minutes.

It would also involve a spur line to Canberra, taking just over an hour from Sydney.

It is envisaged that by 2065, the service would cater for 111 million passenger trips, running 18 hours a day, all year. The report also said significant issues included noise pollution, while environmental and planning laws would also present hurdles.

The report estimates that 144km of tunnel would have to be built to carry the bullet train, with the largest single section of 67km underneath Sydney.

Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese, a proponent of an east coast high-speed line, welcomed the report and said it had the potential to be a "game changer" for the way Australians, live, work and holiday.

"It also has the capacity to better integrate our regional and metropolitan communities, ease congestion on our roads as well as provide a new foundation for a low carbon, high productivity economy," Mr Albanese said.

"Already this technology is being rolled out across the globe with clear economic, productivity, lifestyles and environmental benefits."

The report says that high-speed rail could produce economic benefits to Australia's economy in the order of $2.30 for every dollar invested and cut carbon emissions from the transport sector.

The government will seek public comment until June 30 and set up a high level advisory group to consult with industry on how it could be delivered.

The Daily Telegraph did not seek comment from the Coalition on the report, according to a strict condition of the government releasing the report.

The condition comes two days after Communications Minister Stephen Conroy criticised The Daily Telegraph for not seeking his comment before the release of a Coalition NBN policy.

Source: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/b ... 6617731446


$114 Billion and a 60km+ tunnel under Sydney!? That is not going to happen. Even if it goes ahead, how many years would we expect it will complete from approval? 20 years? 30 years?
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Fare Increase Effect

Postby Cab » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:05 am

It needs to start now! Perhaps a token section between Sydney and Canberra would be a good focus to start on as Stage 1. :) :)
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:27 pm

Cab
As well as developing the skills needed it would reduce the traffic at Mascot and could be funded four ways equally between Sydney, Canberra, Barry and Anthony.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby blind bus spotter » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:03 pm

if they built the vft in stages its a least an incentive to go the hole way and finish it. I just don't see the population to support it especially in country nsw and the SE of qld though opperating via the gc is a good idea.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby crazyturbo76 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:59 pm

They could build it under a PPP (Private-Public Partnership), like with Sydney's motorways. Look at how PPPs built them up from the ground-now we have a better road network. Maybe the Government could go 50-50 with a private consortium to fund the project.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby abesty » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:15 pm

Seven

Nine

Ten

ABC

WIN
Seven Billion Stations and Counting
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby moreton » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:05 pm

Lets use the Politicians Super Fund to pay for it, they are the ones saying how much it will cost, they are the only ones left with any money in the near future. Moreton :wink:
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby crazyturbo76 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:31 am

moreton wrote:Lets use the Politicians Super Fund to pay for it, they are the ones saying how much it will cost, they are the only ones left with any money in the near future. Moreton :wink:

True. The politicians in Canberra always say that stuff is expensive when obviously they do have the money for it. Perhaps O'Farrell, Newman, Gillard/Abbott and Napthine (the new Victorian Premier) should contribute all the money and rolling stock to the project. 25% between each of the three states and the Feds-that would be fair, and obviously things would work out.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby nbus » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:20 pm

Queensland caint contribute as we have no money to pay for it or anything else says Campbell Newman.
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Fare Increase Effect

Postby Cab » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:27 pm

I think the states would prefer to pay for what % service's there state rather then 25%. For e.g Canberra would have a very small percentage of track and infrastucture where as NSW would have a far greater one. I think the states would prefer to focus on there own rail networks as well :)
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:08 am

It would be a huge advantage for Canberra to have a fast rail to Sydney so I think they would stump up the full 25% especially as they know all the people who print the money.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby boxythingy » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:18 am

Australia brags about its political system, but their PM says one thing during the election; something else when (s)he takes office, something else at midterm and something else when (s)he leaves.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby crazyturbo76 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:50 am

If they're so concerned about koalas, just build a tunnel under their habitat. No koalas harmed-simple. That or put protective fencing around the track. (Just a suggestion.)
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:05 am

Put the train in a tunnel all the way.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby crazyturbo76 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:44 am

Or just pop tunnels in residential or environmental areas where noise is a problem. Simple. The rest of the track can then be built above ground. That way the environment's preserved, there's no noise and the high-speed rail project is secured.
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