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Perth Compared with other cities

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state

Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Swift » Thu May 09, 2019 11:34 pm

PoweredByCNG wrote:
It's the same anywhere in this lovely country really. No more than usual really.

It must have cleaned up a lot since a friend visited there in 2005. He noticed more anti socials in the city centre than in Sydney at the time. He also said I would love the buses there, even though he wasn't and isn't an enthusiast, but he knew all too well how I was into them!
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Fri May 10, 2019 6:51 am

In a city of 2 million anywhere in the world there's always a small percentage of misfits. Perth is a beautiful, friendly relaxed city, notably the public transport workers.

I've amended my post to include the images of the graphs to make it easier to follow.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby PoweredByCNG » Sun May 12, 2019 12:45 pm

Swift wrote:It's the same anywhere in this lovely country really. No more than usual really.

It must have cleaned up a lot since a friend visited there in 2005. He noticed more anti socials in the city centre than in Sydney at the time. He also said I would love the buses there, even though he wasn't and isn't an enthusiast, but he knew all too well how I was into them![/quote]

Perth has two major centres for activity - Perth CBD and Fremantle. The majority of the "action" tends to be concentrated in these areas, as well as major suburban centres. Sydney and Melbourne have more major centres for activity so even with their larger populations, my guess is that the "unsavouries" have more room to spread out.

Perth has changed noticeably over the last 15 years or so, in some ways good and in others bad. In relation to public transport, the buses that were in operation in 2005 have almost all been replaced and/or refurbished and on top of that, requirements set by the goverrning Authority are such that fleet presentation standards as well as overall amenity of bus and train stations is much higher now. These days, it is very rare to find any graffiti on a train or bus, and station infrastructure is maintained to a very high standard especially considering the increase in foot traffic compared to 15 years ago.

Having travelled to the eastern states regularly over the past 20 years, it's interesting to note that while Perth has taken huge strides to make public transport more appealing to the masses, other cities may not have necessarily followed suit. What is also interesting to note is the impact that the contracting model used for the operation of buses and ferries in Perth has had on other cities, with Adelaide and now Sydney and Melbourne using similar models for the franchising of their bus networks.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Swift » Sun May 12, 2019 4:38 pm

I can sense the amazing professionalism that the Perth buses have compared to times of old with their 0305 backbone fleet days.
Interesting break down on why my mate noticed the freak element more.
The Perth people I have met are outstanding people that do Australia proud. A product of the healthier mentality that is evident. But boy when there is an unsavoury incident there, it gets extreme lol. Perth has the same problems experienced by other Australian cities, but there is much more of a "can advance" attitude that is missing elsewhere, except maybe Adelaide.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Mon May 13, 2019 8:01 am

PoweredByCNG wrote:Having travelled to the eastern states regularly over the past 20 years, it's interesting to note that while Perth has taken huge strides to make public transport more appealing to the masses, other cities may not have necessarily followed suit.

Sydney has been powering ahead catching up and moving forward again since 2011, I suspect similar in Adelaide though I haven't been there in many years.

Swift wrote:The Perth people I have met are outstanding people that do Australia proud. A product of the healthier mentality that is evident.

They're still wedded to their automobiles to the extent that they'll sit on a motorway in a stationary gridlock watching trains zipping past them at 130 km/h and still not put two and two together, so there must be something in the water.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:27 pm

tonyp wrote:They're still wedded to their automobiles to the extent that they'll sit on a motorway in a stationary gridlock watching trains zipping past them at 130 km/h and still not put two and two together, so there must be something in the water.
I feel this is more a product of the lack of fast, frequent cross-suburban (east-west) links; the consistent levels of congestion on some of our major east-west roads highlight this. At times it seems there's too much emphasis on trying to feed a train station rather than providing a good-quality link across town. Then there are a few feeders around that are hopelessly indirect no matter what type of journey you are trying to undertake.

City workers with good access to one of the major train lines (whether by car, bus or foot) generally have little to complain about. However those who must use the bus are seriously short-changed by the disappointing lack of adequate bus priority (such that you get bunching, bus conga lines and so on). Even buses feeding our major bus/rail interchanges can suffer from this problem; in several instances buses serving a common corridor are scheduled a couple of minutes apart during peaks, but after a considerable wait at the lights, five or more buses may be running in tandem.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Mon May 13, 2019 1:46 pm

Well they're at least starting to build those east-west links as part of Metronet. Bus priority is something they should be working on.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby PaxInfo » Tue May 14, 2019 7:51 am

tonyp wrote:They're still wedded to their automobiles to the extent that they'll sit on a motorway in a stationary gridlock watching trains zipping past them at 130 km/h and still not put two and two together, so there must be something in the water.


So much of Perth works outside the CBD. And the non-CBD places they work at (Osborne Park, Malaga, Morley, Kewdale, Belmont, O'Connor, Balcatta, Wanneroo, Canning Vale) would typically require a bus > train > bus trip from the average home. The Perth bus > train system is extremely good at feeding into the CBD core (though peripheral parts have a 'last mile' problem). But add another bus, a shorter trip to a suburban location plus free parking at the workplace and PT falls down.

Ditto for leisure trips. Unlike Melbourne little of the beach is near rail. Neither are most of the big shopping centres (like Adelaide, Brisbane and to some extent Melbourne).

And car ownership is incredibly high. The proportion of car-free households is way smaller than any of the eastern states capitals.

Perth has a great network for a non-transit planned city. Melbourne has great urban bones but indifferent frequencies and routes. Sydney has good suburban employment centres and great 7 day train frequencies. Put the three together and you have the ideal and most useful network.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Tue May 14, 2019 11:26 am

PaxInfo wrote:And the non-CBD places they work at (Osborne Park, Malaga, Morley, Kewdale, Belmont, O'Connor, Balcatta, Wanneroo, Canning Vale) would typically require a bus > train > bus trip from the average home.
More importantly, the non-CBD work locations may not have access to any useable public transport at all (there are some exceptions, naturally). The other problem, if there is a public transport link, the hours of operation may not suit the workers (the 548/549 combo seem to be a reasonable exception).

PaxInfo wrote:Ditto for leisure trips. Unlike Melbourne little of the beach is near rail. Neither are most of the big shopping centres (like Adelaide, Brisbane and to some extent Melbourne).
The few places where shopping centres are well-connected with public transport (Joondalup, Booragoon, Morley and Rockingham, possibly Karrinyup, but not sure of service levels) it seems as though public transport is reasonably well-utilised... It seems very much along the lines of "build it and they will come."

Rockingham is the interesting case out of those mentioned as the Mandurah line was originally intended to include an underground railway station adjacent to or beneath Rockingham City Shopping Centre. However the costs associated with rerouting the line more directly into Perth (two underground stations, associated tunnelling and other works) rather than via Thornlie prevented this from happening. Perhaps it will come to fruition one day - in the mean time, we can only dream of what might've been.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby PaxInfo » Tue May 14, 2019 11:52 am

Merc1107 wrote:Rockingham is the interesting case out of those mentioned as the Mandurah line was originally intended to include an underground railway station adjacent to or beneath Rockingham City Shopping Centre. However the costs associated with rerouting the line more directly into Perth (two underground stations, associated tunnelling and other works) rather than via Thornlie prevented this from happening. Perhaps it will come to fruition one day - in the mean time, we can only dream of what might've been.


What's Rockingham City's catchment? Wouldn't most of it have a direct bus? For those areas that don't there's also the 555 shuttle from the station which connects with the foreshore (that a train would never do).

Low weekend bus frequency is probably the main service issue for most centres. Often it's good from the CBD to the centre (eg 950, 930 for Morley & Carousel) but it drops off beyond.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Tue May 14, 2019 12:55 pm

PaxInfo wrote:What's Rockingham City's catchment? Wouldn't most of it have a direct bus? For those areas that don't there's also the 555 shuttle from the station which connects with the foreshore (that a train would never do).

A majority of feeders do access the current Rockingham Stn via Kitson Street and the busway. Presumably it would have been a facsimile of Joondalup with (re)development to support the station and shopping centre.

Per my understanding, part of the 555s existence can be attributed to the relocation of Rockingham Station to its present location, and there's no reason why the service wouldn't have existed were the station in the location originally planned for.
It was originally promised that light rail would one day link the present-day station to Rockingham City, with provisions for this included from the Ennis Ave underpass into the Station: viewtopic.php?t=27065
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Tue May 14, 2019 3:31 pm

PaxInfo wrote:So much of Perth works outside the CBD. And the non-CBD places they work at (Osborne Park, Malaga, Morley, Kewdale, Belmont, O'Connor, Balcatta, Wanneroo, Canning Vale) would typically require a bus > train > bus trip from the average home. The Perth bus > train system is extremely good at feeding into the CBD core (though peripheral parts have a 'last mile' problem). But add another bus, a shorter trip to a suburban location plus free parking at the workplace and PT falls down.

I've looked at a lot of those suburban employment centres on the journey planner and a lot of them actually have pretty good and quick multi-modal cross-suburban public transport connections, especially thanks to those 15 minute headways that are so common to both modes. But I agree not all of them and, when considered against the convenience of driving in a city that's still not too bad for driving (that is, not submerging into utter congestion like Sydney and Melbourne), you can understand why people drive to these workplaces. Apart from stories that appear in the media, I've been doing little surveys on Perthians I meet. One lady I knew drove to work in Mosman Park (next to the train station) from home in Armadale (near the station) and I asked her how long it took. Then I looked at the journey planner and told her that she would get to work and back home quicker by train. She replied that she was happy driving. Attitude issue!

Sydney's bus services have actually gone in the Perth direction and, combined with those train services, deliver an increasingly good result for Sydney. Melbourne seems to suffer from lots of half hour and 40 minute type of headways and that just won't work.

It seems to me that, apart from lack of bus priority, there's one significant political problem in Perth which is, just as they extend a railway line, the next government (usually Liberal I guess) comes along and extends the adjacent motorway out further, undermining the advantage that the train just got! They actually need to turn driving and parking into a curse by not investing in more capacity. It has come to that in Sydney (and Melbourne?), but that will be a way off in Perth yet.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Tue May 14, 2019 11:12 pm

tonyp wrote:It seems to me that, apart from lack of bus priority, there's one significant political problem in Perth which is, just as they extend a railway line, the next government (usually Liberal I guess) comes along and extends the adjacent motorway out further, undermining the advantage that the train just got!
To be fair, the current Government is managing to do both :mrgreen:
https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/P ... egins.aspx

There are a few other "congestion busting" projects on the cards, too.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Swift » Tue May 14, 2019 11:59 pm

Sydney's Metro is going to affect the decisions of all the other capitals.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Wed May 15, 2019 6:47 am

Merc1107 wrote:To be fair, the current Government is managing to do both :mrgreen:
https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/P ... egins.aspx

There are a few other "congestion busting" projects on the cards, too.

"The Kwinana Freeway Widening project will add eight kilometres of additional lane and provide capacity for an extra 1,800 vehicles per hour, improving traffic flow for those commuting to the CBD or our northern suburbs," Ms Saffioti said.

[facepalm] :roll:

Swift wrote:Sydney's Metro is going to affect the decisions of all the other capitals.

Perth already has a "Sydney Metro", just without the platform doors and automation and a little bit faster!
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Fri May 17, 2019 2:55 pm

tonyp wrote:
"The Kwinana Freeway Widening project will add eight kilometres of additional lane and provide capacity for an extra 1,800 vehicles per hour, improving traffic flow for those commuting to the CBD or our northern suburbs," Ms Saffioti said.


[facepalm]
Some of the earliest work done about two years ago for the current "Smart Freeways" project involved the removal of the queue-jump bus lane from Judd Street to the Narrows Bridge. Much like the current widening works, its removal simply moved a congestion pinch point (Narrows Bridge, where everyone proceeded to jump into the right-most lane :roll: ) somewhere else. If the buses using the road are reasonably well-used (which they usually are, and buses still need to gain access to the city running empty from elsewhere), I'd rather see a bus lane allowing buses to do their job effectively versus additional lanes for single-occupant cars.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Bus Suggestions » Mon May 20, 2019 4:16 pm

One lady I knew drove to work in Mosman Park (next to the train station) from home in Armadale (near the station) and I asked her how long it took. Then I looked at the journey planner and told her that she would get to work and back home quicker by train. She replied that she was happy driving. Attitude issue!

If, of course, one were to say that she had an attitude issue without any background (in calculations), everybody would jump to relative cheapness of getting around by car (finances). Let's do some calculations here.

Mosman Park Stn - Armadale Stn: 39.1 km, in morning peak around 50-75 mins by car.
57-67 mins by train, which means that timing-wise, yes, the train is faster, but 10 mins isn't always enough to win people over.

The average fuel consumption for a car in 2016 was 10.6 l/100 km, which means that a day of driving to/from work can take about 8.5 litres of fuel (4.24 litres per trip). The amount of working days in 2019 is 251. This means that she is using 2133.5 litres of fuel a year. So far for May, the median fuel price for ULP 91 is 149.8 cents per litre. If we take this month's median fuel price and then multiply that by the yearly fuel consumption, this means that in a year, she could be spending up to $3200 a year by taking her car. Not counting any insurance policies she may have, of course.

Now let's compare this to public transport. Armadale Station is in Zone 4, and Mosman Park in Zone 2. This means that she would be buying a 3-zone standard ticket costing $4.80, not assuming that she has a SmartRider or a concession card. $4.80 multiplied by 2 (remember, 2-way trip) is $9.60. Paying off PT tickets for a year would instead cost about $2409, meaning that if instead she used PT, she would have shaved nearly $600 off travel payments.

The above calculations confirm that finances are not the issue behind why the aforementioned lady continues to drive, so let's instead look at comfort-influenced factors. Let's have a look at things you can't do while driving, but can on PT.

1. Catch up on sleep during long trips.
2. Check your phone.

Of course, the trade-off is an interchange instead of a one-seat trip, but hey, you can get some shut-eye without disrupting traffic!

Either all that isn't enough to convince her that driving is better, or she just simply wouldn't believe you.

In the end, everything points to this post being written only for justification of a statement. 8)
It also points out that some drivers are too persistent to win over, which is plain unlucky.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:16 pm

You could do a documentary interviewing Australians about their experiences and attitudes about PT. Yesterday we travelled from Mosman Park to Landsdale to visit a friend. Landsdale is one of those new outer suburbs at the end of the universe that you find in any Australian city, with brand new housing that reminds you of Pete Seeger's song, little boxes made of ticky tacky all looking just the same. Nevertheless these people have a bus stop right at the end of their short street with a half hourly service to Warwick station interchange, from which point you access the fast rail system that makes moving around Perth a dream. So, even though cross-country, the journey was so easy and quick with just minutes between connections and all under cover on this rainy day. It was a great, relaxing trip.

Anyway, we get there and the friends are like: you poor things having to come in the train, are you all right, do you want a lift back etc, as if we'd been through some horrific, traumatic experience. I explained that we actually preferred using the train and bus and hated car journeys in Perth's mad, awful traffic and I get that look like I'd just walked out of an asylum. So then my analytical instincts rise to the surface and I gently uncover their attitude about PT and discover that the lady used to use the buses when the kids were in baby buggies and they were high floor and the drivers used to help her lift the pram in and out of the bus. Then one day a driver refused to and left her stranded at the bus stop. She was so enraged that she bought a car and has never used PT again (thus missing out on the entire low floor era!).

So I guess we see there some ingrained attitudes that many Australians must have, based on unpleasant experiences of years past. So ingrained that they don't realize that services and systems (especially in Perth) have completely changed since then. I can't stand Perth's traffic. When it moves they drive like possessed demons (made worse by the general lack of pedestrian crossings throughout the city). When it doesn't move, they sit there at a standstill not understanding the benefits of the trains shooting past them at up to 130 km/h. The madness of a city with one of the highest rates of car ownership anywhere. That PTA managed to hew such a sizable chunk of PT patronage out of this mess is a miracle.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Swift » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:00 pm

^ Wow it took one shirty bus driver to do that? Sounds like she was looking for any catalyst to indulge herself with a motor car. I don't know how people can drive every day to work, with a viable alternative available, dealing with aggro from other drivers, wear on the car and horrible congestion.
We seem to have opposite situations between Sydney and Perth where we have outlying developments where people without a quality alternative to driving cry out for said alternative, and those that are fortunate enough to have it virtually on their doorstep, shun it. Australia's depressing poor planning as well as ignorant apathetic people with indoctrinated sheep mentality shows no sign of abating.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:40 am

I don't see much difference between outer Sydney and outer Perth because governments in both states have been proactive about PT. However in some other cities I can imagine that people on the outskirts are forced to be very car-dependent as a result of poor provision of bus services.

I can understand somebody being put off by a single bad episode over a pram, just from recalling my own younger days with littles and their tendency to dart off, all the baggage that goes with it and the sheer physical effort of having to coordinate it all together. They were terrible times when people were expected to fold prams before boarding a bus, an insane notion that could only have germinated inside the brains of people who'd never had children. The bus industry took a painful long time moving on from that one and no doubt helped spawn the proliferation of SUVs that clutter the roads today!
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:47 am

tonyp wrote:Anyway, we get there and the friends are like: you poor things having to come in the train, are you all right, do you want a lift back etc, as if we'd been through some horrific, traumatic experience. I explained that we actually preferred using the train and bus and hated car journeys in Perth's mad, awful traffic and I get that look like I'd just walked out of an asylum.
I can't wrap my head around why people have this type of attitude. It's not as if you are sharing a train (or bus) with escapees from a maximum security prison or anything. Besides if more people used public transport, we'd have a more frequent service and the types responsible for anti-social behaviour would be spread out across more services. The optimist in me says they might even be less anti-social if they don't have to spend up to an hour waiting for their service!

It can be mildly to moderately annoying if you don't plan your journey well and wind up missing a "connection" you were never intended to make (I've found the Journey Planner is very optimistic about changing buses at Elizabeth Quay), but other than that, it isn't bad at all.

tonyp wrote:made worse by the general lack of pedestrian crossings throughout the city
The City of Fremantle have pedestrian crossings everywhere. Mind you, they've been placed in the most dangerous locations (at corners and intersections of roundabouts) and supposedly got around legislation that would've prevented their existence by claiming they are "traffic calming" devices. Now I don't know about anyone else, but I don't fancy being a traffic calming device while I go about my business on foot! :shock:

The 'pram incident' you describe is interesting. Have to agree with Swift, some people are almost looking for a reason to be frustrated with someone or something to fuel their prejudice(s).
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:18 am

Fremantle has done a fantastic job of keeping traffic out of the old centre (while still allowing buses free rein) and generally making it pedestrian friendly, which is as it should be, being a major tourist and nightlife destination. So I have no objections to any pedestrian crossings there, not that I've noticed many, they're not needed.

I'm thinking more of corridors like the Stirling Hwy where there are only crossings every few kms and pedestrians are constantly running across the road through a gauntlet of constant, fast-moving traffic. Perth's road planning is as bad as its PT planning is good - and that's without mentioning the lack of bus priority!

That reminds me, is the freeway along the Joondalup line being widened? The trains are being slowed down for something looking like roadworks. Widening the freeway is the worst type of transport planning.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby GazzaOak » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:51 pm

I find Perth for a fair comparison for Sydney/Melbourne to learn.... Perth is harder to convince people to hop onto public transport (due to the sparsness of the city), but yet they are doing a better job than Sydney/Melbourne (but at least Sydney Metro may change that)

And also the fact how quickly they went from 3 diesel lines to 5 electric lines in a matter of a few years is good.

When I stayed at my friend place, he stayed along the route of 950 (which is Morley to the univeristy near charles garinder hospital). Its was frequent like crazy in the day time when i looked at the timetable (almost at the same rate as the B line service to Northern Beaches or 333 to bondi of Sydney, but with regular buses with the odd bendy).
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Swift » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:39 pm

A difference is Sydney people are eager to give new public transport a go if only it would be built.
MAN SL200 & Mercedes 0 305:essentially the same bus.
Brisbane: SL200, Sydney 0305, Canberra both, Melbourne SL200, Hobart neither, Adelaide both, Perth 0305, Parramatta Ryde SL200 :P
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