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Perth Compared with other cities

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state

Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Swift » Thu May 09, 2019 11:34 pm

PoweredByCNG wrote:
It's the same anywhere in this lovely country really. No more than usual really.

It must have cleaned up a lot since a friend visited there in 2005. He noticed more anti socials in the city centre than in Sydney at the time. He also said I would love the buses there, even though he wasn't and isn't an enthusiast, but he knew all too well how I was into them!
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Fri May 10, 2019 6:51 am

In a city of 2 million anywhere in the world there's always a small percentage of misfits. Perth is a beautiful, friendly relaxed city, notably the public transport workers.

I've amended my post to include the images of the graphs to make it easier to follow.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby PoweredByCNG » Sun May 12, 2019 12:45 pm

Swift wrote:It's the same anywhere in this lovely country really. No more than usual really.

It must have cleaned up a lot since a friend visited there in 2005. He noticed more anti socials in the city centre than in Sydney at the time. He also said I would love the buses there, even though he wasn't and isn't an enthusiast, but he knew all too well how I was into them![/quote]

Perth has two major centres for activity - Perth CBD and Fremantle. The majority of the "action" tends to be concentrated in these areas, as well as major suburban centres. Sydney and Melbourne have more major centres for activity so even with their larger populations, my guess is that the "unsavouries" have more room to spread out.

Perth has changed noticeably over the last 15 years or so, in some ways good and in others bad. In relation to public transport, the buses that were in operation in 2005 have almost all been replaced and/or refurbished and on top of that, requirements set by the goverrning Authority are such that fleet presentation standards as well as overall amenity of bus and train stations is much higher now. These days, it is very rare to find any graffiti on a train or bus, and station infrastructure is maintained to a very high standard especially considering the increase in foot traffic compared to 15 years ago.

Having travelled to the eastern states regularly over the past 20 years, it's interesting to note that while Perth has taken huge strides to make public transport more appealing to the masses, other cities may not have necessarily followed suit. What is also interesting to note is the impact that the contracting model used for the operation of buses and ferries in Perth has had on other cities, with Adelaide and now Sydney and Melbourne using similar models for the franchising of their bus networks.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Swift » Sun May 12, 2019 4:38 pm

I can sense the amazing professionalism that the Perth buses have compared to times of old with their 0305 backbone fleet days.
Interesting break down on why my mate noticed the freak element more.
The Perth people I have met are outstanding people that do Australia proud. A product of the healthier mentality that is evident. But boy when there is an unsavoury incident there, it gets extreme lol. Perth has the same problems experienced by other Australian cities, but there is much more of a "can advance" attitude that is missing elsewhere, except maybe Adelaide.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Mon May 13, 2019 8:01 am

PoweredByCNG wrote:Having travelled to the eastern states regularly over the past 20 years, it's interesting to note that while Perth has taken huge strides to make public transport more appealing to the masses, other cities may not have necessarily followed suit.

Sydney has been powering ahead catching up and moving forward again since 2011, I suspect similar in Adelaide though I haven't been there in many years.

Swift wrote:The Perth people I have met are outstanding people that do Australia proud. A product of the healthier mentality that is evident.

They're still wedded to their automobiles to the extent that they'll sit on a motorway in a stationary gridlock watching trains zipping past them at 130 km/h and still not put two and two together, so there must be something in the water.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:27 pm

tonyp wrote:They're still wedded to their automobiles to the extent that they'll sit on a motorway in a stationary gridlock watching trains zipping past them at 130 km/h and still not put two and two together, so there must be something in the water.
I feel this is more a product of the lack of fast, frequent cross-suburban (east-west) links; the consistent levels of congestion on some of our major east-west roads highlight this. At times it seems there's too much emphasis on trying to feed a train station rather than providing a good-quality link across town. Then there are a few feeders around that are hopelessly indirect no matter what type of journey you are trying to undertake.

City workers with good access to one of the major train lines (whether by car, bus or foot) generally have little to complain about. However those who must use the bus are seriously short-changed by the disappointing lack of adequate bus priority (such that you get bunching, bus conga lines and so on). Even buses feeding our major bus/rail interchanges can suffer from this problem; in several instances buses serving a common corridor are scheduled a couple of minutes apart during peaks, but after a considerable wait at the lights, five or more buses may be running in tandem.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Mon May 13, 2019 1:46 pm

Well they're at least starting to build those east-west links as part of Metronet. Bus priority is something they should be working on.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby PaxInfo » Tue May 14, 2019 7:51 am

tonyp wrote:They're still wedded to their automobiles to the extent that they'll sit on a motorway in a stationary gridlock watching trains zipping past them at 130 km/h and still not put two and two together, so there must be something in the water.


So much of Perth works outside the CBD. And the non-CBD places they work at (Osborne Park, Malaga, Morley, Kewdale, Belmont, O'Connor, Balcatta, Wanneroo, Canning Vale) would typically require a bus > train > bus trip from the average home. The Perth bus > train system is extremely good at feeding into the CBD core (though peripheral parts have a 'last mile' problem). But add another bus, a shorter trip to a suburban location plus free parking at the workplace and PT falls down.

Ditto for leisure trips. Unlike Melbourne little of the beach is near rail. Neither are most of the big shopping centres (like Adelaide, Brisbane and to some extent Melbourne).

And car ownership is incredibly high. The proportion of car-free households is way smaller than any of the eastern states capitals.

Perth has a great network for a non-transit planned city. Melbourne has great urban bones but indifferent frequencies and routes. Sydney has good suburban employment centres and great 7 day train frequencies. Put the three together and you have the ideal and most useful network.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Tue May 14, 2019 11:26 am

PaxInfo wrote:And the non-CBD places they work at (Osborne Park, Malaga, Morley, Kewdale, Belmont, O'Connor, Balcatta, Wanneroo, Canning Vale) would typically require a bus > train > bus trip from the average home.
More importantly, the non-CBD work locations may not have access to any useable public transport at all (there are some exceptions, naturally). The other problem, if there is a public transport link, the hours of operation may not suit the workers (the 548/549 combo seem to be a reasonable exception).

PaxInfo wrote:Ditto for leisure trips. Unlike Melbourne little of the beach is near rail. Neither are most of the big shopping centres (like Adelaide, Brisbane and to some extent Melbourne).
The few places where shopping centres are well-connected with public transport (Joondalup, Booragoon, Morley and Rockingham, possibly Karrinyup, but not sure of service levels) it seems as though public transport is reasonably well-utilised... It seems very much along the lines of "build it and they will come."

Rockingham is the interesting case out of those mentioned as the Mandurah line was originally intended to include an underground railway station adjacent to or beneath Rockingham City Shopping Centre. However the costs associated with rerouting the line more directly into Perth (two underground stations, associated tunnelling and other works) rather than via Thornlie prevented this from happening. Perhaps it will come to fruition one day - in the mean time, we can only dream of what might've been.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby PaxInfo » Tue May 14, 2019 11:52 am

Merc1107 wrote:Rockingham is the interesting case out of those mentioned as the Mandurah line was originally intended to include an underground railway station adjacent to or beneath Rockingham City Shopping Centre. However the costs associated with rerouting the line more directly into Perth (two underground stations, associated tunnelling and other works) rather than via Thornlie prevented this from happening. Perhaps it will come to fruition one day - in the mean time, we can only dream of what might've been.


What's Rockingham City's catchment? Wouldn't most of it have a direct bus? For those areas that don't there's also the 555 shuttle from the station which connects with the foreshore (that a train would never do).

Low weekend bus frequency is probably the main service issue for most centres. Often it's good from the CBD to the centre (eg 950, 930 for Morley & Carousel) but it drops off beyond.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Tue May 14, 2019 12:55 pm

PaxInfo wrote:What's Rockingham City's catchment? Wouldn't most of it have a direct bus? For those areas that don't there's also the 555 shuttle from the station which connects with the foreshore (that a train would never do).

A majority of feeders do access the current Rockingham Stn via Kitson Street and the busway. Presumably it would have been a facsimile of Joondalup with (re)development to support the station and shopping centre.

Per my understanding, part of the 555s existence can be attributed to the relocation of Rockingham Station to its present location, and there's no reason why the service wouldn't have existed were the station in the location originally planned for.
It was originally promised that light rail would one day link the present-day station to Rockingham City, with provisions for this included from the Ennis Ave underpass into the Station: viewtopic.php?t=27065
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Tue May 14, 2019 3:31 pm

PaxInfo wrote:So much of Perth works outside the CBD. And the non-CBD places they work at (Osborne Park, Malaga, Morley, Kewdale, Belmont, O'Connor, Balcatta, Wanneroo, Canning Vale) would typically require a bus > train > bus trip from the average home. The Perth bus > train system is extremely good at feeding into the CBD core (though peripheral parts have a 'last mile' problem). But add another bus, a shorter trip to a suburban location plus free parking at the workplace and PT falls down.

I've looked at a lot of those suburban employment centres on the journey planner and a lot of them actually have pretty good and quick multi-modal cross-suburban public transport connections, especially thanks to those 15 minute headways that are so common to both modes. But I agree not all of them and, when considered against the convenience of driving in a city that's still not too bad for driving (that is, not submerging into utter congestion like Sydney and Melbourne), you can understand why people drive to these workplaces. Apart from stories that appear in the media, I've been doing little surveys on Perthians I meet. One lady I knew drove to work in Mosman Park (next to the train station) from home in Armadale (near the station) and I asked her how long it took. Then I looked at the journey planner and told her that she would get to work and back home quicker by train. She replied that she was happy driving. Attitude issue!

Sydney's bus services have actually gone in the Perth direction and, combined with those train services, deliver an increasingly good result for Sydney. Melbourne seems to suffer from lots of half hour and 40 minute type of headways and that just won't work.

It seems to me that, apart from lack of bus priority, there's one significant political problem in Perth which is, just as they extend a railway line, the next government (usually Liberal I guess) comes along and extends the adjacent motorway out further, undermining the advantage that the train just got! They actually need to turn driving and parking into a curse by not investing in more capacity. It has come to that in Sydney (and Melbourne?), but that will be a way off in Perth yet.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Tue May 14, 2019 11:12 pm

tonyp wrote:It seems to me that, apart from lack of bus priority, there's one significant political problem in Perth which is, just as they extend a railway line, the next government (usually Liberal I guess) comes along and extends the adjacent motorway out further, undermining the advantage that the train just got!
To be fair, the current Government is managing to do both :mrgreen:
https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/P ... egins.aspx

There are a few other "congestion busting" projects on the cards, too.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Swift » Tue May 14, 2019 11:59 pm

Sydney's Metro is going to affect the decisions of all the other capitals.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby tonyp » Wed May 15, 2019 6:47 am

Merc1107 wrote:To be fair, the current Government is managing to do both :mrgreen:
https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/P ... egins.aspx

There are a few other "congestion busting" projects on the cards, too.

"The Kwinana Freeway Widening project will add eight kilometres of additional lane and provide capacity for an extra 1,800 vehicles per hour, improving traffic flow for those commuting to the CBD or our northern suburbs," Ms Saffioti said.

[facepalm] :roll:

Swift wrote:Sydney's Metro is going to affect the decisions of all the other capitals.

Perth already has a "Sydney Metro", just without the platform doors and automation and a little bit faster!
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Merc1107 » Fri May 17, 2019 2:55 pm

tonyp wrote:
"The Kwinana Freeway Widening project will add eight kilometres of additional lane and provide capacity for an extra 1,800 vehicles per hour, improving traffic flow for those commuting to the CBD or our northern suburbs," Ms Saffioti said.


[facepalm]
Some of the earliest work done about two years ago for the current "Smart Freeways" project involved the removal of the queue-jump bus lane from Judd Street to the Narrows Bridge. Much like the current widening works, its removal simply moved a congestion pinch point (Narrows Bridge, where everyone proceeded to jump into the right-most lane :roll: ) somewhere else. If the buses using the road are reasonably well-used (which they usually are, and buses still need to gain access to the city running empty from elsewhere), I'd rather see a bus lane allowing buses to do their job effectively versus additional lanes for single-occupant cars.
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Re: Perth Compared with other cities

Postby Bus Suggestions » Mon May 20, 2019 4:16 pm

One lady I knew drove to work in Mosman Park (next to the train station) from home in Armadale (near the station) and I asked her how long it took. Then I looked at the journey planner and told her that she would get to work and back home quicker by train. She replied that she was happy driving. Attitude issue!

If, of course, one were to say that she had an attitude issue without any background (in calculations), everybody would jump to relative cheapness of getting around by car (finances). Let's do some calculations here.

Mosman Park Stn - Armadale Stn: 39.1 km, in morning peak around 50-75 mins by car.
57-67 mins by train, which means that timing-wise, yes, the train is faster, but 10 mins isn't always enough to win people over.

The average fuel consumption for a car in 2016 was 10.6 l/100 km, which means that a day of driving to/from work can take about 8.5 litres of fuel (4.24 litres per trip). The amount of working days in 2019 is 251. This means that she is using 2133.5 litres of fuel a year. So far for May, the median fuel price for ULP 91 is 149.8 cents per litre. If we take this month's median fuel price and then multiply that by the yearly fuel consumption, this means that in a year, she could be spending up to $3200 a year by taking her car. Not counting any insurance policies she may have, of course.

Now let's compare this to public transport. Armadale Station is in Zone 4, and Mosman Park in Zone 2. This means that she would be buying a 3-zone standard ticket costing $4.80, not assuming that she has a SmartRider or a concession card. $4.80 multiplied by 2 (remember, 2-way trip) is $9.60. Paying off PT tickets for a year would instead cost about $2409, meaning that if instead she used PT, she would have shaved nearly $600 off travel payments.

The above calculations confirm that finances are not the issue behind why the aforementioned lady continues to drive, so let's instead look at comfort-influenced factors. Let's have a look at things you can't do while driving, but can on PT.

1. Catch up on sleep during long trips.
2. Check your phone.

Of course, the trade-off is an interchange instead of a one-seat trip, but hey, you can get some shut-eye without disrupting traffic!

Either all that isn't enough to convince her that driving is better, or she just simply wouldn't believe you.

In the end, everything points to this post being written only for justification of a statement. 8)
It also points out that some drivers are too persistent to win over, which is plain unlucky.
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