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[SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state

Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:59 pm

Roderick
I think you are suggesting what they are going to do in France with no more TGV as it costs too much to run and that is OK but if you want to go over longer distances you need next generation 1,000kph trains to allow single tunnels which will create a monopoly on busy routes and be economically viable.
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby Roderick Smith » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:44 pm

Do come up with some energy figures for maglev and tube railways before making blind assertions re comparability with TGV.

Roderick.

July 7 2017 High speed rail between Canberra and Sydney possible by 2032.
Rapid growth on the fringes of Sydney and Melbourne threatens to add billions of dollars to the cost of building a high-speed rail line between the two cities, Infrastructure Australia warns.
The federal government's infrastructure advisory agency says high speed trains could be running between Canberra and Sydney within 15 years, but governments must act quickly to avoid potential cost blowouts.
More videos Government warned: act now on high-speed rail
After decades of discussion, Australia's infrastructure adviser says the government finally needs to take immediate action on a high-speed rail linking Melbourne and Sydney.
A report to be published on Friday by Infrastructure Australia says the governments of NSW and Victoria should get in early and buy land along the proposed rail corridor now, at an estimated cost of $720 million, or pay more than $3.5 billion later.
The agency says a failure to protect the corridor within the next three to five years could do serious harm to a project that will become vital given the populations of Melbourne and Sydney are projected to double by 2060.
The federal government's infrastructure advisory agency says high speed trains could be running between Canberra and Sydney within 15 years.
In its report Corridor Protection, Infrastructure Australia says very fast trains could be running between Sydney and Canberra within 15 years and to Melbourne five years later.
Those dates are based on work beginning on the main Sydney-Melbourne route by 2024, with a Canberra link to open by 2032.
But the job will be made much more difficult if action is not taken soon to protect the proposed route.
IA has identified about 60 kilometres of land on the urban fringes of Australia's two biggest cities that has been earmarked by planners for a future high-speed rail connection, but which is at risk of being gobbled up by developers.
A high-speed rail link between Melbourne and Sydney would pass through Donnybrook, north of Melbourne. Photo: Jason South
In New South Wales, there are concerns for land south of Campbelltown on Sydney's south-eastern edge, and in five locations between Sydney and Newcastle.
The town of Donnybrook sits along the corridor for a future high speed rail line between Melbourne and Sydney. Photo: Jason South
Infrastructure Australia chairman Mark Birrell said New South Wales, Victoria and the Commonwealth had to commit now to acquire the land on which a high-speed rail line for Australia's east coast will one day be built.
Otherwise Australia could blow its chance to build a link for the benefit of future generations.
"It requires governments over the next three to five years to put aside funds which will reap a long-term return," Mr Birrell said.
"If we get this right we will avoid huge cost, disruption and engineering problems."
Infrastructure Australia has valued the at-risk land along the corridor at about $720 million, using data from the NSW and Victorian valuers-general.
The authority argues population growth in Melbourne and Sydney is rapid enough to justify opening the link as early as 2032, initially between Sydney and Canberra.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/high-speed-ra ... x6c1k.html

July 8 2017 ACT government to stop developers using land on high speed rail corridor .
Vast swathes of land in the ACT, earmarked for high speed rail tracks, are to be kept locked down and beyond the reach of housing developers, the ACT government says.
The declaration follows warnings on Friday that the rapid sprawl of housing on the fringes of Sydney and Melbourne threatens to blow the nation's chance of a very fast train network by building over vital corridors for the long-awaited transport project.
More videos Government warned: act now on high-speed rail.
After decades of discussion, Australia's infrastructure adviser says the government finally needs to take immediate action on a high-speed rail linking Melbourne and Sydney.
Infrastructure Australia published a report on Friday saying fast trains could be running between Canberra and Sydney as early as 2032 but warned the NSW and Victorian governments that they must act now to protect the rail corridor from the rapid sprawl on the edges of their capital cities.
In the ACT, where a very fast train has been seen since the 1980s as a potential economic game-changer for the territory's economy, the Labor government says the land needed for the Canberra leg of a high speed rail route is safely out of the clutches of the house builders.
A corridor of land stretching from Canberra Airport, the present preferred site for the end of the spur line that is envisaged running into the ACT, north to the NSW border and broadly following the route the Majura Parkway has been protected from development for some time, Chief Minister Andrew Barr's office said on Friday.
"The ACT government has been involved in the Intergovernmental Working Group on the project to protect the corridor and we have done our bit by ensuring that the land identified by the group would be available if and when the federal government decided to undertake the project," a spokesman for Mr Barr said.
"It's up to other state governments to do the same."
While leases have been granted to landholders along the route, the territory government says the real estate can be made available quickly if a fast rail project gets moving.
Mr Barr's office also said the government was not content with a spur line to Canberra but was pushing for the capital to be part of the main line.
"More recently, the ACT government has been in discussions with the federal government on a number of variations to the project," the spokesman said.
The planned, and an alternative, route for high speed rail into Canberra.
"We have pushed the case that Canberra should not be on a 'spur line' to the main corridor between Sydney and Melbourne, but should be part of the main line.
"The ACT government has also been in discussions about changing the proposed corridor through the ACT, incorporating the Canberra stop at the airport rather than tunnelling through Mount Ainslie.
"We will continue to work with the federal government on these proposals."
Federal Labor MP for Canberra Gai Brodtmann also expressed her enthusiasm for the project on Friday.
"A study conducted by the former Labor government in 2013 found that high speed rail could carry 84 million passengers each year, with express journey times of just 64 minutes between Sydney and Canberra," Ms Brodtmann said.
"A high speed rail link would revolutionise interstate travel for Canberrans."
The Business Council of Australia urged state governments to heed the advice of Infrastructure Australia and get serious about setting land aside for big nation-building projects.
"This report demonstrates that if governments have the foresight to plan ahead and reserve corridors for future infrastructure use, they can realise huge savings when those infrastructure projects are ultimately rolled out," the council's chief executive Jennifer Westacott said on Friday.
Related Articles:
High speed rail to Sydney possible in 15 years .
Development threat calls for commitment to fast rail .
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-new ... x6ihn.html
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:57 am

Hi Roderick

As Magtube has never been done anywhere the only indication of power consumption is that of the 600kph Japanese maglev which obviously would use more by pushing a lot of air.

My guess is in the same density as an aircraft at cruise it would use far less energy than dragging wings along.
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Re: high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:16 pm

Roderick Smith wrote:There is no point going faster than the time taken to commute from / to suburbs, or the time to negotiate convoluted stations, or the time taken to negotiate airport-style security, which such railways will have.


The point is that if trains can go 1,000kph between Melbourne, Albury, Canberra and Sydney then there is only need for a single tunnel connecting them as while the northbound are in tunnels for 15 minutes the southbound are in stations doing a bit of security and giving people plenty of time to get on and off and vice versa.

Actually I just saw a guy on ABC news today saying that is what they are going to do but he called it hyperloop and said only 500kph so he nearly described Magtube.

If you want to check out the 200 seat 5.6m wide carriage it is on google warehouse https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/search ... Class=both
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:44 am

India wants to use Japanese Maglev in existing corridors http://www.ucnews.in/news/Apple-helping ... 42667.html but they will have to do what Elon Musk now wants to do with tunnels https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/ny ... -approval/ and https://www.distance-cities.com/distanc ... new-york-n due to air density and g force on the surface.

I never considered what would happen if one farmer decided he did not want a cutting through his farm and HSR could not buy the land http://www.latimes.com/local/california ... story.html
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Re: high-speed rail

Postby Roderick Smith » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:12 am

High-speed commuter lines are the most extravagant way to commute.
Roderick.

Australia’s high-speed rail plan is a blow to housing affordability Chris Kohler, Aug 9, 2017.
Australia has wasted decades, millions of dollars and countless man-hours pointlessly trying to replace air travel between Sydney and Melbourne with trains, when the only current goal of high-speed rail should be to connect cities with regional hubs.
The Melbourne and Sydney housing affordability story has become a transport story, because as prices have risen so have commute times – and that severely limits options for those trying to buy on a budget.
The train journey from Newcastle and Penrith to Sydney’s CBD is slower now than it was 30 years ago, according to PwC transport expert Robert Williams, and it’s a similar story with Melbourne’s nearest towns and cities.
Current plans for high-speed rail connecting Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane involve a $114 billion price tag and a 50-year time frame. Photo: Chris Ratcliffe Connecting Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane via high-speed rail is hysterically expensive, but connecting places like Geelong and Ballarat to Melbourne, Newcastle and Wollongong to Sydney, and Toowoomba to Brisbane with trips of around 45 minutes is more doable.
And it’s bait.
“Spending [$114 billion] on east coast high-speed rail, which largely benefits wealthy business travellers, frankly … it’s not great politics.”
Robert Williams
Bringing down those commute times from the ballpark of one to 1½ hours each way to about 45 minutes would offer an attractive opportunity to the huge number of Australians currently locked out of major city property markets. They could move to regional hubs and keep their city jobs without sacrificing three hours or more to the daily commute.
For $114 billion you could build five UK-France Channel tunnels. Photo: Chris Ratcliffe, Bloomberg That’s how you ease capital city house prices without having to tamper with negative gearing or capital gains tax exemptions. It’d also help decongest city roads and boost regional development.
Trying to link the cities is where the idea falls apart The current federal high-speed rail plan is expected to cost $114 billion and take another 50 years. Let those numbers sink in and remember that running over budget and time on infrastructure projects is a proud Australian tradition.
A conceptual rendering of a high-speed train on a rail line that will run from Los Angels to San Francisco. Photo: State of California For that much money you could build five UK-France Channel tunnels, Four Hong Kong International Airports, about 60 per cent of the International Space Station, or even, if you’re feeling a bit loose with your inflation adjustments, one Great Wall of China.
That price tag and time frame was cooked up in 2013 during the Department of Infrastructure’s HSR (High-Speed Rail) Phase Two Report, which of course followed a phase one report in 2011, and before that a strategic study, and several advisory boards and committees dating to the mid-1980s.
But instead of putting the whole idea away, the 2017-18 budget included another $20 million in funding to support the development of business cases. A prospectus is on the way and proposals are due in September – three will receive Commonwealth funding.
in 2012 China opened the world’s longest high-speed rail line stretching 16,000km Photo: Reuters.
An alternative to air travel is a want, not a need Unfortunately for fed-up air travellers, a rail alternative to air travel would be an expensive luxury given the level of competition and efficiency shown by the aviation industry.
Thousands of kilometres of rail would need to be laid and tunnels would need to be bored – including underneath the country’s three biggest cities. It’ll cost significantly more than the entire market value of Westpac Bank before maintenance costs even begin.
Now consider that the entire first phase of Sydney’s second airport at Badgerys Creek is expected to cost $1.4 billion.
Give Sydney and Melbourne airports a little credit. In the year to May the Sydney-Melbourne route saw a record 8.94 million passengers, according to the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics. It’s the fourth busiest path in the world, but while passengers often grumble about delays and customer service, the system is far from broken.
Improvement in efficiencies in managing greater numbers of air travellers is being noticed, according to CommSec chief economist Craig James.
“The latest data on domestic aviation activity is further evidence that the economy is doing well,” Mr James said.
“The record number of business people travelling between Sydney and Melbourne further highlights the good conditions being experienced by corporate Australia.”
Melbourne Airport chief executive Lyell Strambi said Melbourne was on track to welcome 60 million passengers annually, as soon as 2033, and predicts its new runway development will be operating between 2022-24.
“A new runway, along with improvements to the capabilities of existing runways and taxiways, is vital infrastructure that will facilitate continued growth in airline services, particularly from international carriers upgrading their fleets with efficient new-generation aircraft,” Mr Strambi said.
A high-speed rail alternative would be great, but it’s not a pressing need.
For the government, a non-committal ‘we’re looking into it’ is the safest bet “Spending [$114 billion] on east coast high-speed rail, which largely benefits wealthy business travellers, frankly, who are currently catching airplanes between those two capital cities… it’s not great politics if you live in western Sydney or Adelaide or Perth, or everywhere else,” Robert Williams, who is responsible for PwC’s Strategy& Defence and Transport practices, told Domain.
“Is that a good use of the nation’s resources given it’s going to need a lot of taxpayer funding?”
Governments don’t like to say no, but given the current HSR estimates assume constructions costs will fall as technologies improve, any current business proposals will have to be decades ahead of the pack if they’re going to be at all useful.
But Australians should prepare themselves for a never-ending supply of high-speed rail studies, committees, advisory boards and feasibility studies – at their expense. Because Australia has a history of doing things this way.
“On Federation the government committed to building a rail link to Darwin, they just didn’t say when they’d build it. There were 27 or 28 studies over the years until they eventually built it in 2003,” Mr Williams said.
“I guess [this high-speed rail project] is a bit like that. The conditions right now are such that it’s not viable…”
Rather than wasting more time and money promising to send trains hurtling up and down the entire east coast, the Department of Infrastructure should strip back its high-speed rail plans and focus only on the area it’d have the biggest impact – everyday commuting.
www.domain.com.au/news/australias-highs ... 809-gxpjzi
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Re: [SMH] Albanese concerned about high-speed rail

Postby eddy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:59 pm

I agree that CLARA would be uneconomical particularly as we do not have an open door immigration policy however a $35b Magtube would be with a guaranteed $2b per year income and very little running costs.

You may be interested in the email I sent to the Boring company.
Hi
Thought you may be interested in the Freeface TBM I designed in Google warehouse that could achieve the one mile per week that Elon wants. https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/search ... face%20tbm

Not only could it achieve up to 10m per hour but no expensive surface drilling would be required as information from the directional drill hole in front would tell when predrive grouting is needed allowing it to penetrate any geology.

This directional drill hole would also be used to anchor the 1,000t pull ram while the wheels would provide the turning force allowing an insitue primary slipform to be immediately behind the wheels.

As the slipform would have to be done at the same time as cutting I think a train with supply flat top, concrete wagon, muck wagons and outbye loco may be better than conveyor especially as I want to do 50km drives Sydney to Melbourne with Magtube.

Apart from eliminating the main bearing by stepping the discs back it provides a second free face like blasting or using a jackhammer thereby reducing greatly the load and wear on the discs.

Regards Eddy
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