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What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

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What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Dave Wilson » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:30 pm

OK West Ozzies - is this half cab a Crossley? Looks like a bit like Crossley Mancunian type radiator (its not an Albion). Whatever it is, it's certainly exotic looking.

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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby ALBION1881 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:47 pm

It could be a crossley mancunian this is a picture a of one in england and the radiator comes a little to the one in your picture I got this picture off the crossley website but see for yourself.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Herbert » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:29 pm

Yep, sure is - the one and only known to have been in WA. It was Scarborough Bus Service 5. That photo shows it with its original imported body; it was later re-bodied by SBS's subsidiary Motor Body Builders. It was withdrawn pre-MTT.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Dave Wilson » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:23 pm

Don't know that I've ever heard of Crossleys anywhere else in Australia . Do you know of any others Herbert?(DRTT Sydney did have an ex military Crossley breakdown truck at one stage )
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby ALBION1881 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:38 pm

The only other thing that crossley provided are the diesel engines for the X and XA diesel locomotives that western australia railways had which were a crossley marine diesel and weren`t suited for railway use they were prone to bad oil leaks and catching fire this a picture of a XA locomotive as pictured which I got off the hotham valley website so there are three things that crossley had to do with australia.
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Crossley Marine ?

Postby Dennis96 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:09 pm

I must repudiate or debunk the myth perpetuated in Route 660's statement above.

The 2 Stroke Crossley HST Vee8 engines used in the Western Australian Government Railways were not a marine diesel or variants of one.

Nor were they used in British submarines. No evidence has been found that Crossley diesels found their way into any submarines, let alone the HST Vee8. Diesel engines in submarines of the era needed to be narrow in width and were straight configuration. The confined space inside the cylindrical hull of those submarines did not lend itself to engines of a V configuration.

Crossleys were known for building excellent diesel engines and many indeed were (and are still used) in marine and stationary applications such as driving pumps and generators. eg some of the famous Star ferries in Hong Kong harbour are Crossley powered, as was if I recall correctly, the Sydney ferry Kanangra and possibly other formerly steam powered Sydney ferries when converted to diesel.

After World War 2, two well regarded British engineering firms formed a consortium to produce diesel electric railway locomotives. Metropolitan-Vickers, renowned for their power station equipment and electric multiple unit trains and electric locomotives teamed up with Beyer Peacock who were well known for their high quality steam locomotives. Crossley was to be the supplier of the prime mover for the consortium's diesel locomotives. The HST Vee 8 was still in its design/prototype stage when the Metropolitan-Vickers/Beyer Peacock won the first of three contracts for diesel electric locomotives that would use the Crossley HST Vee8. A higher powered V10 version was also proposed but I have not heard any were built.

Crossleys had never built an engine for a main line rail traction application before. They were unaware of the extreme stresses experienced by an engine going through intense cycles of working flat out and then being reduced to idle repeated over and over again as a train climbed hills on full power and then coasted down the other side. This was new territory for a firm whose experience was of engines of heavy construction, bolted to a stable bed plate or concrete foundation usually running at constant speed and load with unlimited amounts of cooling water. Crossley never solved the extreme vibration problem with the HST Vee8. This damaged wheel bearings, caused breakages of oil, fuel, coolant and air pipes as well as other electrical control gear that was normally quite reliable in other trains. It is indeed great credit to the WAGR engineers and mechanical staff that they got some 30 years service out of the X Class, which when downgraded from hauling the crack express passenger trains and very heavy main line goods trains settled down. For a first generation diesel electric locomotive from a consortium that had no previous experience in this field actually acquitted themselves quite well in the end.

The WAGR contract specification was a huge ask for diesel locomotive manufacturers of the early 1950's. 1100 horsepower under the bonnet with a ten ton axle load enabling the locomotive to run on unballasted track as light as 45 lb per yard. All this in temperatures ranging from near freezing to 46 degrees in outback WA. To get the X class weight within the WAGR contract parameters, the crankcase of the HST Vee 8 was nowhere near as strong as required and light weight components including aluminium cylinder heads and pistons were used. The English designers would have had no appreciation of the environment in Western Australia as their locomotives bucked their way over some notoriously rough and up and down track with heavy loads often in unimaginable heat. The flexing of the locomotive structure to which the engine was bolted exacerbated the problems of a lighter than desired crankcase, which subsequently flexed, opened up and leaked. And with the engine mounted above the traction motors, the oil dropped onto them causing flashovers and fires.

Furthermore the HST Vee8 went virtually untested and definitely undeveloped into the WAGR X class, the CIE (Irish railways) A class and British Railways Type 2 Co-Bo that became their Class 28. Only the WAGR perservered with this engine. CIE re-engined their locos with EMD engines and BR quietly retired theirs to the scrap yard.

AS a PS, Crossley motor cars were imported into Australia in limited numbers pre World War 2.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Herbert » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:14 pm

Dave, I really don't feel qualified to answer whether any other buses in Australia wore the Maltese Cross. I wonder if there is anyone with PSV Circle lists who may be able to assist?

After doing some Googling, I'm also wondering whether the Perth one may have been one of two diesel "Alpha"-model chassis made in 1933 for export (source: Crossley Vehicles website)? SBS 5 is said to have been of 1933 vintage, plus the front wheels appear to be as per the "Alpha" & "Arrow" series rather than the "Mancunian".

I have some other photos of No 5, but not yet uploaded to the database. Will see what I can do...

Would loved to have experienced No 5 if it exuded anything approaching the delight of our beloved X-class locomotives.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Herbert » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:47 pm

In original condition, posed at Scarborough Beach...

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... and as re-bodied, outside the SBS depot in Mt Hawthorn:

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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby ALBION1881 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:18 am

Herbert nobody knows what ever happen to number 5 as she would be among the rareties in government bus it be like the drt&t AEC Qs and 1010 AEC RENOWN in sydney we don`t in the way of unknown bus chassis but I am curious as to the fate of crossley number 5.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Dave Wilson » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:44 am

I found out from a source that there were two diesel Alphas readied for export, one to WA and the other to NZ. The NZ unit was never delivered.

I am intrigued at the English style rebody - certainly made for a more handsome vehicle. Wouldn't it be lovely if it was sitting on a farm somewhere with a Lancet 1 next to it.

As for the Sydney ferry fleet - quite a few of them had Crossleys including Kanangra . Beautiful sounding things too. Oh for the day that Kanangra runs again.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby ALBION1881 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:27 am

Dave and Dennis96 actually the sydney ferry to have the crossley marine diesel was not the kanangra but the lady chelmsford which is melbourne and it has sunk at mooring and you find to that sydney ferry had either english electric diesels or harland and wolff diesels in most of the ferry fleet with a gardiner diesel thrown as a trial.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby system improver » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:50 am

I don't suppose there is any particular need for a roof over the engine, but it does look strange. Anyone know of other examples of this design?
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Dave Wilson » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:53 pm

ALBION1881 wrote:Dave and Dennis96 actually the sydney ferry to have the crossley marine diesel was not the kanangra but the lady chelmsford which is melbourne and it has sunk at mooring and you find to that sydney ferry had either english electric diesels or harland and wolff diesels in most of the ferry fleet with a gardiner diesel thrown as a trial.



Kanangra is fitted with an 8 cylinder Crossley.The Lady Chelmsford was originally fitted with a marine Gardner in 1933 and was the first steamer to be converted to diesel - as a trial.The Gardner was replaced by a 4 cyl Crossley in the 50s. The rest of the converted steam to diesel fleet (Kosciusko,Kameruka,Karingal,Ladies etc) appears to have ended up with either 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder Crossleys.Several others also started out with Gardners (ie Karingal) and this included one of the unusual double funnelled Lady boats -the Lady Northcote.For some reason the Northcote was scrapped in 1941. Converted Manly ferries had BTH/English Electric.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Herbert » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:54 pm

Firstly, many thanks to Dave Wilson for asking the initial question, since it has unearthed some new gen on SBS 5. It has now been confirmed that it was one of two Alphas made in 1933 for export - which means it would have had a 9.1 litre diesel engine.

Just to repeat that it was withdrawn pre-MTT, therefore it was never a Govt bus.

Yes, system improver, there were other half-cab bodies like that in Perth - mostly Daimler COG5s or CVG5s. I've always thought that they'd be beaut on an English coach running out to the seaside in summer time, but would only add to the heat of a Perth summer.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Carlisle 8 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:19 pm

system improver wrote:I don't suppose there is any particular need for a roof over the engine, but it does look strange. Anyone know of other examples of this design?


Here is a photo of a withdrawn and engineless Carlisle 11, bearing its later MTT number 72. This photo previously appeared in my Carlisle Bus Service thread.

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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby ALBION1881 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:36 pm

Carlisle 8, would you have a date as to when the picture of mtt 72 was taken? I would like to find out about the double decker bus in the background as to me it looks like an ex sydney decker or a ex mtt adelaide daimler one of the ones from the cancelled order that the DRT&T placed but declined and the order went to adelaide. would you have picture of this decker thank you.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby system improver » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:50 pm

I went to the Leyland Bus book and found a number of photos of this body style. I suppose a full canopy could catch the wind as the bus speeds along at 50kph.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Guy_Arab » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:12 pm

Herbert wrote:In original condition, posed at Scarborough Beach...

Image

... and as re-bodied, outside the SBS depot in Mt Hawthorn:

Image


I have two more photos of the original condition of bus one taken with the fleet in 1934 other on its own.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Herbert » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:05 pm

From Guy_Arab's collection, the Scarborough BS fleet as at 16.12.1934. The Crossley is in the centre of the photo. From left to right are Nos 8 & 7 Dennis Lancets, No 6 Thornycroft Cygnet, No 5 Crossley, No 4 which appears to be an International, then four normal-control Thornycrofts.

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Zooming in on another copy of that photo...

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Another view of the Thornycroft with the two Dennises following:

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A near-side view of it with its second body:

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Thanks to Malcolm Asquith, some further information has come to light. Chassis no 91101, which was meant to go to New Zealand as a demonstrator, was not exported. Instead it was stored until 1937, then sold to Ashton under Lyne, a town east of Manchester, where it ran until 1947.

Chassis no 91102 was shipped to Tozer, Kemsley & Millbourn (Importer) of Perth in chassis form - therefore its original body would have been local (perhaps by Campbell & Mannix, Bolton, or J Rhodes) rather than imported (as was previously suggested).
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Dave Wilson » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:14 pm

What an incredible line up - two Dennis Lancet 1s, a Thornycroft (Daring?)and the Crossley.A Thornycroft of the 30s period is a real rarity in Aus too.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Herbert » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:28 pm

Dave, I can't find my notes at the moment, but a while back I did do some research into what type that Thornycroft may have been & tentatively concluded that it was a Cygnet rather than a Daring - but I'm always more interested in having the gen correct rather than being right! :P No doubt a good subject for another thread.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Dave Wilson » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:36 pm

Couldn't find anything on Thornycroft buses on the Net either and unfortunately lack any real information on them otherwise. WA operators seem to have had every type of half cab bus chassis except Bristol (and Gilford?). I'm sure the Crossley, the Thornycroft and a Lancet 1 are parked in a shed somewhere for BPSWA to discover!
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Herbert » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:56 pm

Some further information has come forward from a gentleman who was a mechanic at Scarborough Bus Service:
I was at SBS in 1953 and had worked on the bus. It was extremely reliable but was withdrawn from service round '53 because of brake problems, which could have easily been fixed with a bigger brake booster fitted. The Milletts chose not to go ahead with the repairs and sold it to be used as a school bus, I think in the Miling/Moora area. ... I have made enquiries in the past without any success.

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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby system improver » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:38 pm

Herbert wrote:Some further information has come forward from a gentleman who was a mechanic at Scarborough Bus Service:
I was at SBS in 1953 and had worked on the bus. It was extremely reliable but was withdrawn from service round '53 because of brake problems, which could have easily been fixed with a bigger brake booster fitted. The Milletts chose not to go ahead with the repairs and sold it to be used as a school bus, I think in the Miling/Moora area. ... I have made enquiries in the past without any success.



Can you follow this up Herbert?

Seriously, it just goes to show how far we get if we just post stuff.
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Re: What is this bus - is it a Crossley ?

Postby Dave Wilson » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:42 pm

Looks like Hong Kong was the largest purchaser of Alphas. A lot were carted off/destroyed by the Japs during the occupation but most of those that survived were rehabiltated after liberation.

Does the mechanic know anything about the fate of the SBS Lancets?
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